"¿Sabes? Simplemente preguntarles directamente qué necesitan y comprenderlo no es ofensivo si no se acercan como lo haría un adolescente típico". - Cheryl Pankhurst

Welcome to Mindshift Power podcast, a show for teenagers and the adults who work with them, where we have raw and honest conversations. I'm your host, Fatima Bey, the mind shifter. And welcome. On today's episode, we're gonna be talking about how we recognize and deal with people who are in the autism spectrum. And our special guest today is Cheryl Pankhurst.

She's a special edition, I'm sorry, special education special. She's been doing this for over twenty five years, and she's out of Toronto, Canada. She's also a fellow podcaster. She has a podcast called Teen Minds Redefined. So she also has a podcast for teens.

Y además de Cheryl, también tenemos a Janiyah, una chica de 17 años de Ámsterdam, Nueva York. ¿Cómo están? Bien. Estoy genial. Gracias.

Good. Thank you. So let's you know me. I like to dive right in. So, Cheryl, tell us.

What do you do? So right now, I'm in transition. I have just retired from, twenty five plus years in the high school field. I used to work one on one with kids and their parents and their teachers to advocate, give them a voice, create as much of an inclusive environment safe, and just educate them on how we can support our kids and how we can find the strengths and work on their strengths rather than focusing on weaknesses. And so I'm in transition now.

I've just retired and, again, starting the podcast, and the podcast will also morph into a a coaching membership for teens and parents and teachers. Nice. Yeah. So tell us a little bit more about why why did you start this this podcast now that you're retiring? You know, because I loved working in the high school system.

But what I started to really notice is, you know, there's a lot of red tape and politics and bureaucracy that I was just decided I'd had enough of. And I noticed that when I worked one on one with a kid and collaborated and and try to find out what's hard and so and help them solve problems with them collaborating, not imposing, answers. And then sitting down with parents who were struggling with their teams at home or sitting down with teachers who just didn't understand what was happening in the classroom. That was my jam. When I had those meetings, I felt the energy.

I felt like, okay. This is what I need to do. This is where I need to to move forward and really help on a much larger scale in the podcasting arena. Awesome. That's awesome.

Now I'm gonna ask you this question. Why are people retarded? Oh, lord. Let me let me also say this to the listeners who are like, why in the world did you just ask a ridiculous question? I asked that question in that ridiculous manner intentionally because people out there really do ask real questions like that.

This this show isn't about presentation and impressing you. It's about reality. And reality is people still think like that. And even though this younger generation is being taught, to be a little more sensitive, their parents aren't. Their parents weren't because they weren't you know, we weren't taught that.

La gente hace preguntas así. Personalmente, nunca haría una pregunta así, pero lo hago para dejar claro. ¿Por qué parece que cada vez hay más personas con discapacidades mentales de una u otra forma? Bien. Voy a hablar del término «retardo».

Mhmm. And I'm gonna say that because let's define retarded. Retarded means stop or reverse. And so if you're talking about mentally retarded, you're talking about someone whose brain has stopped. And so I think I'm gonna say I'm gonna try to be cool here, Janaya, and say, cancel culture, that's one we're gonna cancel.

And, you know, honestly, let's let's talk about racism. Let's talk about LGBTQ plus. There's all terms that we use that we no longer use because we know better. We know now what's offensive to people. We know how that makes people feel.

So even though it's something we learned, once we know that we're offending somebody, we're done. There shouldn't even be a discussion. That's offensive to me. That says something about me that's not right, so we're not gonna say that anymore. Does that answer your question?

Oh, yeah. I yeah. I I yeah. I asked that because I was, you know, looking for that answer. What about the people who are genuinely ignorant?

They do not know that that word is truly offensive because that's what they grew up. I I worked with a woman because I I I teach sewing as well. And a few years ago, I had a woman that, I don't know what her mental disability was, but she lived in a home, and she had to have a worker that would bring her. And I and I it was my first time really teaching someone with a mental disability how to do some sewing. I adjusted, you know, I adjusted it to to make sure that she understood, and I just figured it out because I that's what I do with anything I teach.

Pero ella misma me decía: «Sí. Soy retrasada mental porque eso es lo que le enseñaron de pequeña, y creo que tenía unos cuarenta y tantos». Así que para ella no era una palabra ofensiva en absoluto. Era simplemente lo que era.

Así que para quienes crecieron con esa palabra, usándola como algo cotidiano, y de verdad no saben que es ofensiva para quienes se preocupan por esa comunidad. Y son precisamente esos que se preocupan por la comunidad los que se molestan porque no ven a esas personas como, ya sabes, personas sin valor, sin cerebro. Mmm. ¿Sabes? Y así es como se percibe.

¿Cómo respondemos a quienes todavía piensan así? Y sí, entiendo por qué es ofensivo. Personalmente, no uso esa palabra porque lo entiendo. Pero si no lo entienden, ¿hay alguna manera de corregirlos sin atacarlos? Bueno, diría que, por lo que sabes, esa es tu terminología.

But here, let me show you something. Let me tell you something. Let me advocate for someone who may not have a voice to advocate for themselves. And that's Mhmm. That's where that's where, you know, people who are ignorant are just typically very scared or very curious.

They just don't know. So I think as a community of humans, this is where we start advocating, and we just keep giving a voice to those who don't, or we give a stronger voice to those who don't have a loud enough voice, and just keep teaching and educating and showing and and just standing up where the people who are, you know, the victims to the terminology that does not really reflect who they are. Yes. Now I will now I I I'll share something with the audience that I talked I shared with you, and, you know, in conversation before this. I have run into people that are, on, you know, on the autism spectrum, in particular tell me that they have Asperger's syndrome.

And I don't I didn't know a lot about people in the autism spectrum. It just wasn't something I was ever I just didn't know a lot about. Not that I had an issue with anybody, but I just didn't know Mhmm. That the people that I thought were socially awkward, It wasn't just that they were socially awkward. They actually had Asperger's syndrome.

And I learned a lot because I actually sat down with a man, who's he's a part of my salsa dancing community. And he sat down, and we had a heart to heart conversation one day in my office. He just stopped by because he was nearby, and we were you know, I was sewing while we're talking. And, and he explained to me what it's like on his end. And it was the first time in my life that I had insight into what it's like to be someone who doesn't understand jokes and doesn't get, emotional social cues, doesn't understand certain emotional things.

Nunca supe cómo era eso, y nunca supe que no fuera así, ya sabes, lo que sentían ellos. Y agradecí que fuera abierto y honesto conmigo porque me permitió comprender una perspectiva que nunca antes había visto. ¿Sabes? No sé cómo era eso. Así que agradecí que me hablara así.

Pero lo que quería preguntarte sobre eso... Mmm... es que creo que no soy la única. A veces pensamos que la gente es simplemente rara o socialmente torpe. Ah, esa persona es simplemente rara. Simplemente lo disimulan como quieren, cuando quieren.

They don't have any sense. And we because we assume that they're born with all the same stuff we're born with. And they're not. I don't know all the technical terms of of all the stuff that they're you know, you do, but I just understand that. How do we tell the difference between when someone's socially awkward because they are just weird, or maybe they're on the spectrum.

I said it that way on purpose because that's words people use. So I would say if someone is socially awkward, I think we could even just say shy. They don't feel worthy to be in the company they're in. They might just have difficulty making eye contact or initiating conversation, and they may eventually warm up in in a comfortable zone. Can it also I'm sorry.

Can it also be, like, anxiety too? Exactly. Social anxiety can be Okay. Something it and those are the types of, characteristics of someone with social anxiety. So they might not be able to initiate a conversation.

They may not be able to have, eye contact. They, they may avoid these situations because they feel like they're not worthy to be in that situation, or their anxiety does not allow them to be in that situation. If you are someone who is on the spectrum, however, so Asperger's is actually a term they don't usually use anymore, it is still Autism Spectrum Disorder. Asperger's was what they, noted as the highest functioning of autism. Mhmm.

So you could pretty well navigate the world with Asperger's. There was just some social differences, that you would be able to pick up on. But under the umbrella of Asperger's, you would see that's that people have a very black and white communication. So on the verbal side of it, black and white communication, they do not see anything in a gray area. They would not understand anything other than something literal.

So for example, you're in the theater and you say go break a leg, they're like, oh my god. Why would I wanna go break my leg? So and it's very much like that. They don't understand sarcasm, and they don't what they nonverbally won't understand is if you're giving them a dirty look or you're shutting them out. You're crossing your arms.

No los quieres en tu espacio. No lo entienden. Así que seguirían adelante y te irritaría que esta persona no entienda tus señales no verbales, pero ellos no las entenderían. Ahora bien, voy a aclarar esto: no todas las personas con autismo tienen exactamente las mismas características, así que no estoy metiendo a todos en la misma categoría.

These are just broad spectrum. Very difficult making eye contact, very difficult understanding justice in their eyes. So for example, I'm gonna I'm gonna go into the high school and my best friend has a has a girlfriend. Bob has a girlfriend. Girlfriend's name is Jane, and I see Jane talking to another man in the another boy in the hallway.

Si estoy en el espectro, estoy enojada. Me estoy portando mal. Eso no es justicia. No es justo que estén con otro hombre o con otro chico porque los novios hacen esto y esta es la regla. Ah.

So it's justice and sometimes they're right in their, perception of justice, but sometimes they have their own perception perception of justice, of what's fair. I know. I have one question. Be yes? Is it, like, possible, like, is it possible, like, for, like, an I don't know how to say the word.

Like, an autism person, like, a non a non autism person to, like, be, like, very close friends? Absolutely. And once you understand that's a great question because once you understand the intricacies of being on the spectrum and you're not offended by, oh, he he doesn't understand the dirty look, so I'm going to say to him, I'm angry with you right now, or you're in my personal space. Could you please back up? Two steps.

O estás hablando demasiado alto. Necesito que, si verbalizas lo que normalmente le diríamos a nuestros amigos en una habitación, él podría estar mirando a un amigo, y tú, como tu madre, cuando eras pequeño, conocías esa mirada que te daba tu madre. Lo sabías. Deberías decir algo. Mejor cállate.

Cierto. Entonces piensas en criar a un niño con autismo. ¡Dios mío! No entienden nada de eso. Así que hay frustración.

Los profesores se sientan al fondo y al frente del aula, y hay un estudiante con autismo que no entiende que no debe hacer clic con el bolígrafo ni golpear el suelo con el pie porque el profesor lo está mirando. Sí. No entienden la mirada. ¿Tienes la mentalidad de un niño pequeño? Porque cuando eres pequeño, no sabes distinguir el bien del mal y no entiendes muchas cosas.

No necesariamente porque un niño pequeño, un niño típico, pueda aprender esas habilidades con el tiempo. Pero alguien con autismo podría no entenderlas nunca. Podría aprenderlas solo porque las memorizará. Así que, en grupos sociales o en educación social, podría decir: «Mi mamá está sonriendo, así que está contenta conmigo ahora mismo. Mi sonrisa está deprimida, o mi mamá está deprimida, así que no está contenta conmigo ahora mismo».

They may not understand why, but they start to be able to memorize the triggers or the characteristics of facial expression or, oh, okay. If my mom's doing that, it means she's not happy or, you know, she's doing this, she's happy and she's so I'm I'm expressing, like, body language. Mhmm. So typically, someone with autism, although a younger child will develop those skills and learn them and understand them, someone with autism may never be able to do that. So, yes, you could be friends, and you know what?

Si pudieras, si pudieras entender que tu amigo puede sentarse en la misma habitación contigo y ambos pueden estar jugando videojuegos, o pueden estar haciendo algo solos sin tener ninguna conversación, esa persona con autismo se sentiría totalmente cómoda con eso. ¡Guau! Y quizás pienses: «Ni siquiera dijimos nada». ¿Cómo podía ser? Pero no importa, porque no hay necesidad de decir nada. A los niños con autismo no les interesa la charla trivial.

Like, zero. And you would say to I would say to my students, hello, David. How was your weekend? Why? Not, oh, it was fine.

¿Cómo te fue? No les importa. Literalmente no les importa. No les interesa la charla trivial. Así que si puedes entender esas cosas y aun así sentirte cómodo y entender que no te ofende, que así es como aprenden, se comunican y procesan la información, sí, cualquiera puede ser amigo de este niño con autismo y definitivamente debería intentarlo.

Sí. Sí. Lo sé, lo sé, una vez que lo entendí, y esta persona me expresó lo que es crecer sin entender las señales sociales y tener que esforzarse mucho para entender lo que la gente quiere decir al comunicarse. Realmente aprendí a apreciar lo mucho que se esfuerza en cada cosa del día a día. Y es una gran persona.

Solo pensaba que era raro y torpe. Pero eso no me inmutó porque si alguien es raro y torpe, seguiré siendo su amigo. Me da igual. ¿Sabes a qué me refiero? Sé que la gente tiene sus problemas y sus razones para ser rara y torpe.

Así que no es que eso no me afecte. Así que, ya sabes, nunca lo alejé por eso. Pero hay mucha gente que sí lo hace porque son raros, entre comillas. Sigo diciendo raros porque ese suele ser el término más común que, al menos, he oído para referirse a personas que son diferentes en cualquier aspecto. Sí.

¿Y qué les dirías a quienes ven a alguien como raro, cuando en realidad podría estar en el espectro? Quizás, no sé, creo que deberíamos intentar comprender a las personas en lugar de simplemente ignorarlas como raras. Mi primera reacción en la escuela ante cualquier profesor o padre que tuviera ese tipo de reacciones, siempre era: «Ese es el hijo de alguien». Mmm. Ahí está tu primera. Ese es el hijo de alguien.

That could be your child, that could be your sister, that could be, you know. So step back, be curious, you can ask questions, you can ask, you can I mean, we know we can research Wikipedia, left, right, and center, but you can ask questions? You can ask a person with autism anything you want as long as you're asking them yes or no questions, black and white questions. Oh, okay. I wouldn't say to an autistic person, how are you feeling today?

What I would say is, are you happy or are you sad? Are you warm? Are you cold? I wouldn't say if I wanna go out and make plans with my autistic friend, it's not gonna be, hey, what do you wanna do Saturday night? It would be, do you wanna go to a movie, or do you wanna go to dinner?

Sí o no. Blanco y negro. Sin subjetividad. Es muy preciso. Vale.

So the subjective thinking piece is is the biggest challenge for them. Yeah. And in school, it's the same thing. I mean, when you're talking to teachers who want, you know, write an essay on the best part of your summer. Oh my gosh.

That could send a kid with autism into a frenzy instead of saying, what did you do in June that you really like to do that had to do with sports? Like, just very narrow, narrow, narrow, narrow so that they don't have to go broad thinking. So you just have to black and white. So you just have to be, like, very, like, very specific towards them? %.

Exactly right. No. I I didn't I didn't know that he was I never knew that. I don't know what you know. I the other thing I wanna ask you about, I know that I've seen this, and I'm respectful of it once I know and understand it.

Many of them are really bothered. I don't even know if really bothered is the right word because it's stronger than just bothered, but, very, very, very upset with loud noises. The sensory issues are incredibly, characteristic of someone on the autism spectrum. So there could be a tag in their shirt or their sock is on funny or the lights are too bright or the noise is too loud or, they're too hot or they're too cold or they're hungry, and sometimes what they won't have is the skills to say, oh my god. Turn down the music.

No. You will see their form of communication could be very aggressive, very loud, and it doesn't connect for you. I have one question. I ain't gonna cut you off. Of course.

Is there any possible way you could speak side language with them? You absolutely could, but you would have to learn together. Oh. So 100% you could and there's many, many children born with nonverbal autism communication, so they can't speak at all. So this is where they would learn to sign.

Esa es una gran pregunta. Sí. No lo había pensado. Tenía una tía sorda y mi madre sabe lengua de señas. Enseña lengua de señas.

And sign language is more complex than people realize. And I under I I'm saying that because I understand your response and that you'd have to learn with them, because people think that sign language is just one language and it's not. A person a a person in The US speaking sign language and a person in Mexico speaking sign language may not be able to talk to each other. Exactly. Because the languages are made up in each country that they're in.

Entonces, como es un lenguaje físico, no es verbal como estamos acostumbrados, ni audible. Así que, para mí, tiene mucho sentido. Así que, cuando los estudiantes... sí... Y fue una buena pregunta.

And when students first start to learn when they come into high school and they are nonverbal, a very effective way of communicating is pictures. So we would have our we I have multiple students in my high school that would never be able to speak. So we would have pictures of a toilet, pictures of a hamburger, pictures of a clock, pictures of a sweater, and he would be able to go pull it down and we knew what he needed. So if you can imagine, I know we've all seen or probably heard of, verbally aggressive autism, or they have temper tantrums and they're throwing chairs around the room and that is very real, but that is just a way of them to communicate something they that is just troubling them, but they have no idea how. I have one question.

Be a very heightened response. Yes. What is, like, the first early signs of, like, autism? It can usually be diagnosed as early as two, and what you would typically see, and I hate I don't wanna pigeonhole this, but many many kids will walk on their tippy toes. Many kids will literally will not get dressed, hate clothing, or will wear the exact same thing every single day without fail.

They will eat the exact same thing at the exact same time every day. This is breakfast, and that's only breakfast, and it never changes. They struggle again to make eye contact. They would struggle to understand any kind of humor or joke or anything that isn't black and white thinking for them. I will tell you, I'm very sarcastic as a person.

Soy extremadamente sarcástico. Todos me conocen y saben que bromeo mucho. Así que tratar con alguien que está en el espectro autista y saber que no lo entiende, me ha hecho un poco más consciente de ello, y los trato de manera diferente. Mmm. Porque ahora entiendo que no van a entender mis chistes y que no son simplemente bichos raros o personas sin sentido común porque no entienden los chistes.

Simplemente no lo entienden, así que tengo que asegurarme de explicarles que es una broma. La mayoría se reirá en cuanto entienda que es una broma, pero hay que explicarlo. Y, hablando de eso, ¿qué consejo les darías a los adolescentes que están ahora mismo con personas del espectro autista a su alrededor? Mencionaste algunas maneras de reconocerlo, pero ¿cómo tratan a las personas del espectro autista a su alrededor y cómo pueden ser más amables con ellos que algunos de sus compañeros? Si notas que se ven incómodos, podrías preguntarles: "¿Estás guapo?".

Are you cold? Are you hungry? Is this too loud? Is this too noisy? Is this too bright?

And and start asking them how they feel, what do you what do you need, but ask them what they need specifically. I would say, understand that if they're not looking at you or having a conversation with you, please don't be offended. That's just they don't that's just the way they communicate. I would say you can ask them, do you need space? Do you need contact?

Algunas personas con autismo necesitan un abrazo sensorial, como uno muy fuerte. ¿En serio? Sí, sí. Un abrazo fuerte. Otras, sin contacto, pero podrían decir: "Necesito espacio", y podrían alejarse tres minutos, respirar, volver y así han podido autorregularse. Y para poder ayudar a alguien antes de que llegue al punto en que simplemente no pueda comunicarse, si empiezas a reconocer esas señales, ahí es donde realmente entran en juego las cosas, en lugar de esperar a saber si hay desencadenantes.

Sé que si estás en un aula y sabes que hay mucho ruido y ves a alguien empezar a balancearse, o si se estimulan, sus manos harán esto, o simplemente puedes empezar a decirles: "¿Necesitas tus auriculares?", "¿Está demasiado alto?", "¿Te gustaría dar un paseo?", simplemente preguntarles directamente qué necesitan y comprender que no es ofensivo cuando no se acercan como lo haría un adolescente típico. Quizás intentar ser más sensible con ellos tiene mucho sentido porque en mi escuela también tenemos niños con autismo.

And when I'd be going when I'd be going to, like, like, the bathrooms or going to, to, like, the guy's office, I would just see them walking around. Like, I'll see them walking around a lot of times, and they'll say hi, and then they'll wave at me with them. They I'll wave at them back, but I just never understood, like, why they, like, walk around a lot until you told me. Mhmm. Okay.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, I I worked with one student who intimidated most of the kids in the school because he was very, very loud when he was triggered, like, very loud. So he's, like, six foot three, and he would yell, and he would swear, and he would scream, and I would just stand there and just wait till he was finished, take him to my office, and that was his safe space. He could say whatever he wanted in my office.

But one day before that happened, I said to him, how does it feel when you get to that point? Like, if you're if you're at a level one, you're super happy, everything's working, all the temperatures are right, you're not hungry, you're not tired, everything's great. But level five is uncontrollable anger. How does that feel? And he describe I'll never forget this.

He described this to me. He said, it's like a wall of fire right in front of my face, like a blazing wall of fire, and I thought, wow. So they use similes? That's how that's how he described it to me. And, again, not everybody's the same, but that's just how he like, my five is a and so imagine yourself in a room that's on fire.

What are you doing? You're yelling. You're screaming. You're escaping. Yeah.

¿Verdad? Sí. ¡Guau! Bueno, ha sido un placer hablar contigo, Cheryl. Pero antes de irnos, ¿podrías contarnos un poco más sobre qué pueden esperar de tu nuevo podcast y dónde pueden escucharlo?

Absolutely. It's going to be on any podcast, Irina. So Apple or Spotify. My website is CherylPankers.com. And what I'm gonna be doing is typically, it'll be a solo podcast for most of the part where I just pick a topic, and I'm just gonna riff on it.

Exactamente lo que hicimos hoy, simplemente elegir algo y empezar. Y espero que la gente que esté ahí diga: "No tenía ni idea". Por ejemplo, esta noche estuvo genial, y espero poder hablar no solo con los padres. Son los adolescentes, los padres, las personas que los quieren, y el profesor en el aula diciendo: "No sé qué significa esto. No sé qué hacer".

Quiero crear una comunidad donde todos trabajemos juntos. Quiero que los adolescentes, los profesores y los padres se reúnan en un grupo para preguntar: "Oye, Janiyah, ¿qué pasó hoy que podríamos haber hecho mejor?". Janiyah podría ayudarnos con eso, intercambiar ideas y crear una comunidad de apoyo. ¿Los adolescentes con autismo también formarían parte de la audiencia? ¡Por supuesto!

Y me gustaría, a medida que avanzamos con el podcast, convertirlo en una membresía para que podamos reunirnos mensual o semanalmente y hablar sobre cómo nos fue esa semana en la escuela, cómo podemos ayudar, cómo podemos trabajar juntos y cómo podemos escuchar de verdad a nuestros adolescentes y darnos cuenta de que son simplemente estrellas de rock. Lo siento. Son estrellas de rock. Sí. Bueno, creo que eso es genial.

I love the the concept, and it's definitely especially niched, you know, idea. But I think that that's good because we have too many broad general useless conversations all over the place all the time right now. I'm really grateful for your for your topics here and who you're who you're working to support. I think this is really, really helpful. There's not too many people out there.

It's people talking down and telling teenagers how, and this is the way life goes. And, no, that's not what it is. That's not what it is. There's You know what I'm saying? Yeah.

I mean, not not just teenagers, but none of us. If somebody's talking down to you or at you or you listening, hell no. You just you still in the room, but you left a while ago because you're on a beach in Maui. Not so. Oh, no.

They just had fires. You're on a beach in in wherever wherever. But you know what I mean? So but anyway, it has been amazing, talking to you, and, I'm I'm happy to support your new, podcast coming up, and I hope all my listeners travel over there, and see what you can learn. Thank you.

I'm right back up. That I think that people will learn a lot from you if they just listen. I mean, in the conversation we had off air, I learned a whole bunch of stuff. So, I'm I'm hoping that that that does I genuinely hope that does well for you. And thank you, Jania, again, for coming on and being the that voice of the team, and you could just ask the questions that we would welcome.

Yes. Thank you. Thank you both. This was just so fun, and I learned a lot too. Yeah.

Aprendí mucho. Me alegro. De eso se trata. Sí. Y ahora, un momento que me hará cambiar de opinión.

Espero que hayan estado escuchando de verdad hoy. Les diré que, hablando con Cheryl, tanto en directo como fuera de él, aprendí mucho. Aprendí algunas cosas que me quedaré con ellas. Creo que es importante que nos tomemos el tiempo para, al menos, intentar comprender a quienes son diferentes a nosotros. Intentar comprender las dificultades de los demás.

You might approach them differently. Try to think outside of yourself. That's what I want you to take away from this. This is about more than just people in the autism spectrum. It's also about seeing pea learning other people, seeing people who are different than you and trying to understand them.

My hopes are that in today's session, you are able to hear that and that you're able to try to get to know people who are different than you. It will enhance your life. If you let it. Thank you for listening to mind shift power podcast, Please like and subscribe to my YouTube channel at the mind shifter. If you have any comments, topic suggestions, or would like to be a guest on the show, please visit FatimaBay.com/podcast.

Recuerda, cambiar tu forma de pensar tiene poder. No te lo pierdas la próxima semana.