"It's like, I love this man, he's like a father to me. Why is he doing this to me? Because it usually doesn't happen right away.  -   James Divine

Welcome to Mindshift Power podcast, a show for teenagers and the adults who work with them, where we have raw and honest conversations. I'm your host, Fatima Bey, the mind shifter. And welcome everyone. On today's episode, we have James Divine from Colorado. He is a speaker and middle school teacher, a musician, and a podcaster.

También tiene diez nietos. Pero hoy vamos a hablar de algo muy serio y voy a ir directo al grano. James, ¿puedes contarnos algunas cosas importantes que te sucedieron de niño? Sí. Fui víctima de un padre que maltrataba a mi madre. Mi madre era de Italia, así que lo bueno fue que nos fuimos de Nueva York, donde nací, hasta los cinco años, y nos mudamos a Italia para estar con la familia de mi madre y escapar de mi padre.

Él nunca abusó de mí, pero veía lo que le hacía a mi madre casi a diario, así se siente, de niña. Nos mudamos a Italia, y la vida allí era generalmente buena. Así que no quiero que parezca que fue mala. Disfruté estar con mis familiares. Éramos muy pobres, pero no lo sabía porque comía albóndigas de sobra todos los días con mis parientes italianos.

But we were part of a, American community there. There there's a navy base over there in, Naples, Italy. And so we knew some of the people who, were there, and I ended up being raped by a friend of the family who I really looked up to. And that abuse continued on for several years of my life from about age five or six to about age eight. Now that's a big can of worms, but let's let's talk about it.

You're a man. Right? And as a boy, I think, you know, sexual abuse is something that that is far more prevalent than it should be, but, also, I think it's different for boys than girls. And that's just what I see as an observer. That's not what I've experienced because I'm not a man.

¿Puedes contarnos cómo te afectó? Es muy complejo, y cualquiera que lo haya vivido probablemente tendrá una historia similar, pero cada historia es un poco diferente. Admiraba a este hombre, su nombre era George. Lo consideraba como un padre. Y cuando ocurrió el abuso, sobre todo la primera vez, generó mucha confusión.

It's like, I love this man, he's like a father to me. Why is he doing this to me? Because it usually doesn't happen right away. I mean, sometimes we hear in the news of someone going into a restroom or something like that, but very rarely does it really happen like that in, with a stranger where someone doesn't know. It's usually with someone that you know.

And so I loved George. I looked up to him. I enjoyed spending time with him. He paid attention to me. And when he finished his terrible act, he apologized, and he said he was sorry.

He said it would never happen again, and my five year old, six year old self believed him. The next time it happened, I believed him. The next time it happened, I believed him. All through ages five through eight, I believed him every time he said, this is the final time. I'm a sick man.

This will never happen again. The abuse stopped when I was eight because he moved away. And you would think that would be when the healing would begin, but what happened is then as I became a teenager and a preteen, 11, 12 years old, and I began to understand what it was that he had done to me. The shame built up. I I don't know why this happens, but when I've talked to other, victims, they've experienced the same thing where they feel like they did something wrong even though as a child, you don't have the wherewithal to know what to do a lot of times.

And so the shame that came about with that as I began to understand exactly what he was, what it was that he did, I began to hate him. And this hate just grew like a cancer. It just ended up, really growing. And in in fact so George was the only time who was the only one who violated me in such an intimate way like this, but I had three or four other men who touched me inappropriately, and they probably would have gone down the same path, but I was a little bit more sly maybe. I don't know.

Quería evitarlo. Pero recuerdo que me sentía perturbado y pensaba: "¿Por qué les atraigo a los hombres? ¿Significa que soy gay?". Y no era así. Pero como lo reprimiera y lo guardara, se creaba confusión, vergüenza y falsa culpa en mi mente y en mi espíritu.

And so it was really a turmoil experience. Now I I I was fortunate because I had a lot of good things happening in my life. I had a lot of men who were positive influences in my life. I had a mom who, although she wasn't perfect, she loved me, and she would do anything to protect us as kids and to and to give us the things we needed. I was I was never wanting for food or love for my mom or a place to live, but this turmoil was still within my spirit and mind and soul.

Primero que nada, sé que ya lo has escuchado, pero lamento mucho que hayas tenido que pasar por eso. Y lo siento por todos los demás jóvenes que también lo han pasado y no hablan de ello. ¿Podrías contarnos un poco más sobre cómo te afectó, más específicamente, tu vida? Y la razón por la que pregunto es porque sé que hay algunos jóvenes y adultos que han pasado por esto y que podrían identificarse con algunos de los detalles que mencionas y saber que no son solo ellos. Así que creo que, cuando miro hacia atrás, ahora tengo 57 años.

Y cuando miro hacia atrás a ese momento de mi vida y al proceso que seguí para obtener el perdón, creo que la parte que más me dañó fue probablemente mi autoestima. Así que luché con la autoestima toda mi vida, y solía ser un 10 en una escala del 1 al 10. Y creo que todavía lucho ahora, incluso como un hombre de 57 años con una vida exitosa a mis espaldas, pero probablemente sea un 1 ahora. Y era simplemente, es todo el tema de la autoestima, y pensar, no puedes hacer cosas. De hecho, creo que tenemos una misión muy similar, porque uno de mis objetivos de vida es ayudar a los adolescentes a dejar de pensar en "no puedo" y a darse cuenta de que sí pueden.

Pueden hacer lo que quieran, pero a veces es nuestro cerebro el que nos lo impide. Así que esa fue probablemente la forma en que más me afectó. Pero al reflexionar sobre mi vida, veo pequeñas falsedades que tenía. Por un lado, el miedo a la autoridad. Y sé que esto se debió no solo al hombre que abusó de mí, sino también a mi padre.

And so up until a couple of years ago, if the principal called me into the office as I'm a retired teacher and still teaching half time now, If the principal called me into the office, 90% of the time, it was for something positive or to ask me a question or to say, hey. We're gonna increase your budget, or can you explain this this expense you're asking for? It was something neutral or good. But my thought was always, oh, I'm being fired, I must be in trouble. And so that stems from that, and it's something I've had to wrestle with my entire life.

Now I do want to give hope to people. I just I wanna say that I am 98% healed and 98% on the journey, to that. Well, I I liken it to being a 1,000 mile journey, and that at the age of 16 is when I decided to forgive this man, and that was the first step, the first mile of that 1,000 mile journey of healing, and it was hard to see the end. Now on mile 997, I can I can't see where it started anymore, but I know I can see the end now, and I can see all the progress that I've made through those those years towards this end of the journey? How old were you when you first came out and and talked about it?

Who did you talk to? So I kept all of this bottled up inside, and I really regret that. But when you're a kid, you don't know. And the shame Mhmm. Is false shame because I didn't do anything as a kid.

This man was the one who is guilty of of all of this. The my my faith in Christ helped me to realize that I needed to forgive this guy. And Mhmm. At the age of 16, when I decided to forgive him, that's also when I told my mom and my sister. And that was the first people I had ever told.

And I don't think I told anybody else until my wife and I had dated for two and a half years before we got married. And I think maybe about a year into our dating, she was the third person that I told about what had happened to me. Oh, wow. And what sort of a reaction did you get? How did it feel when you finally started talking about it?

It felt good on my part to get that to get that off my my chest, so to speak, because I think sometimes when things are hidden, they're actually more painful. But there was also some pain that came with that, and I had to forgive my mom later for this. So first of all, my mom was in denial, and it and I understand it now as a 57 year old man, but as a 16 year old, this was painful because my mom was like, no. That couldn't have happened. You would be dead if that happened.

And I said, well, mom, I'm not right here. I didn't die. And she that made her realize it was, it was true. And then she, was friends with the the guy's wife was now an ex wife by this point, but my mom was still friends with her. And my mom has always been a take things take charge of things and try to take care of it yourself kind of person.

So she contacted her friend right away and said, hey, I need his contact info because I'm gonna give him a piece of my mind or whatever. And her friend said, no. I don't wanna give you his contact info because he was retired from the navy by that point. So she had an ID card, and she had benefits and maybe alimony, but she didn't wanna give my mom any contact info. And why I had to go back later and forgive my mom is because my mom dropped it at that point.

And I wish she would have taken it further and gone to the police and gone Yeah. And tried to prosecute him. But because it was her friend and and her friend said, no, I'm not gonna and then she remained friends with that person for a long time. And I I would think if I were trying to resolve this with my own kids or grandkids and my friend who had info that could help wouldn't give it up. That would be the end of our friendship.

But my mom stayed friends with this person. Okay. What I'm hearing from your story one of the things I'm hearing from your story is that talking about it helped. It stirred the pot. It caused some disruption.

You know? It was uncomfortable. That 100 of the time goes with the territory, and that's what people, I think, sometimes don't understand. It it you still should have done it. I wish you had done it sooner too, but I understand why you didn't.

Y creo que has dado en el clavo: cuando no hablamos de lo que debemos hablar, nos perjudican a nosotros en lugar de a quienes deberían perjudicarnos. Nos perjudican a nosotros, ¿verdad? No a ellos. Y hablar de ello es muy difícil. Y solo puedo imaginar que hablar de ello como hombre es aún más difícil.

I think because our society a lot of what you're saying, I've I've heard from female victims a lot. We blame themselves. As females, we blame ourselves all the time too. But females in our society have traditionally had a different expectation of emotionality than men. And, people can be more cruel when it comes to men.

At least, I that's what I see, especially when it comes to this subject. And especially since you're talking about so long long time ago, today might be a little bit different than it was when you're a kid, but I don't really think it's that much different, honestly. I don't think we've come that far. And that's why I think it's so important to talk about this from a man who's been through it, you know, for other young men who may be going through it now or maybe have gone through it and they haven't talked about it. So talking about it is obviously very important.

I would like you to talk to the young men in the audience and the grown men who are as old as you, they went through it too, and they have never uttered a word. Please just talk to them. So I'll start with the with the young men. And for the young men, I want them to know that they're not alone in this. Even if everybody around them is silent, even if they finally come out with their story and it doesn't feel like anybody else does.

En mi investigación sobre esto, no puedo citar datos específicos, pero he leído mucho sobre el tema y he leído muchas historias y biografías de otras personas que han pasado por situaciones similares. Las estadísticas muestran que al menos uno de cada diez niños, si no más. Ese es el límite inferior: uno de cada diez niños. Y creo que una de cada cuatro niñas ha pasado por algo muy similar. Se ha convertido en algo muy común; no es nuevo, pero durante mucho tiempo fue un secreto.

Como mencionaste, suele ser más fácil para las chicas salir y compartir su historia por alguna razón. Porque creo que para los chicos, es algo que les duele. Sienten que compartir lo que les ha sucedido les va a quitar su hombría. Y debes tener en cuenta que pasé por diferentes etapas. Así que cuando mi hijo nació, tengo una niña y tres niños, y mis cuatro hijos ya son adultos.

But when my boy, turned five years old, my oldest boy, I was looking at this five year old kid and I was thinking, how could someone have done this to a little he he was a little kid. You know, he's not it it made me realize what it what it was that it it was a kid that was abused. And I was able to put myself kinda in his place and realize that that's who I had been. And even though the pain was a little bit less, when my oldest grandson turned five, I was kind of thinking the same thing. It's like, this is a little boy.

He's an innocent boy. He's wouldn't know what to do if something like that were to happen, to him. And we sometimes think that we can, wait A lot of times, young men will blame themselves for what happened, and they think, why didn't I defend myself? Why didn't I punch him? We can all think about those things after the fact.

¿Por qué no se lo conté a nadie? ¿Por qué no huí? Son cosas difíciles de explicar: las cadenas que te ponen emocionalmente cuando alguien te manipula. Porque estas personas tienen malas intenciones. Y por eso hacen cosas buenas para intentar atarte emocionalmente, lo que les permite seguir haciéndote esas cosas malas.

Now to the older men, if someone's my age or older, and they've never told anybody, it's time brother, it's time to tell someone what you've experienced and what you've been through, because it's not too late to start your healing journey. Sometimes guys think it's too late. I had a relative who went to jail for some stupid things he did, and he wasn't in jail for very long, but he had like wrecked an apartment. He had always been drinking. And when he was 45, he came out of jail and he was living with his mom.

And he said to me something like, James, you know, my my I wasted my life. It's my life's over. I'm 45 and I'm living in my mom's basement. And I remember telling him, you know, it's not too late. It's not too late to move forward from all the dumb mistakes and dumb things you did.

And, he could have had, you know, another thirty or forty years after that, to live in the life of fullness that that God had called him to. Now he chose a different route and he he I don't think he still has really emerged from that. And but even now it's not too late. He's probably close to 60 now, but even now it's not too late for him to, to go and do things. It's never too late to take that step and, and move out of where we've, we've been.

Ahora, algo que también me gustaría compartir es que mi madre estaba en contra de la terapia. No sé de dónde sacó esa idea ni por qué era algo malo, pero ojalá me hubiera recomendado terapia inmediatamente después de contarle lo que me había pasado. Y creo que eso habría acelerado enormemente mi proceso de sanación a través de mi experiencia. Terminé buscándola por mi cuenta un poco más tarde en mi vida. Pero podría haberme beneficiado mucho más a una edad mucho más temprana.

Lo que te he oído decir es que básicamente afectó tu vida. Y a veces no nos damos cuenta de cuántas cosas sin resolver tenemos dentro y que están afectando nuestras vidas ahora mismo. Afectan nuestra forma de pensar. Afectan nuestras decisiones y, por lo tanto, nuestro comportamiento. Y cuando tenemos lo que yo llamo cosas sin resolver, y el abuso sexual, el 100% del tiempo, te deja con cosas sin resolver.

Causa daño el 100% del tiempo. Si no se trata, definitivamente aumenta y empeora. He oído que causa daño, pero lo que quiero que el público entienda es que estás curado al 99%. ¿Cómo pasaste de cero al 99? Fue un proceso.

So that first step of it was deciding that I was going to forgive the the guy for what he had done to me. Telling other people was another step in the process. Then throughout my twenties, instead of, because I still had this mindset from my mom that counseling was bad. So throughout my twenties, I didn't seek the the counseling that I that I should have. But all throughout my twenties, that's when I read all kinds of biographies of people who had been through abuse.

And sometimes it was similar to what I had been through. Sometimes it was a different kind of abuse, but their their stories of overcoming and their journey contributed to my mindset to help me, through that. Then for me, and I think everybody's journey is going to be a little bit personal and different Right. For me. So I I I share my story in front of groups of three to 3,000.

Eso, pero no es para todos. No significa que sea para todos. Empecé a hacerlo a los 30 años y, antes de dedicarme a la docencia, fui orador público en los noventa. Un amigo de la familia, que es consejero, me ayudó a compartir mi historia y me dio consejos para mi vida y me ayudó con algunos problemas de mentalidad.

But he started he had heard me do some public speaking, and he's like, you're really missing out by not sharing your story. And I remembered almost like fighting with him over. It's like, I can't share this as as part of my speeches, what I've what I've been through, but he kept encouraging me. And the first time I I did, I thought I was gonna choke. But then I saw what an impact it had, And I saw the stream of people that would line up to talk to me afterwards to share their own story and talk about how that, that, that journey for some of them, that for some of them, I was the first one they had told and I encourage them get some counseling, get with another person, share this some more in deep because Mhmm.

In-depth because we only have this five minutes together or a couple of minutes together. But there were a lot of men who oftentimes there would be one or two men who would kind of hang back until everybody was gone and they wanted to be the last one. But that shame, they they had so much shame, but they were brave at the same time because they're coming up to talk to me. But that shame of, I don't want anybody else to know, but I feel okay that James is going to to know this. So that was an important part.

And then for me also, I wrote wrote this in a in a book, and I feel like the the book was more important for me to write than almost as much as it is for people to to read it. But that so I think that could be for everybody to actually write their story down even if all they do is burn it later or share it with their closest family members. It doesn't necessarily have to go in in a book. Mhmm. So those were some and then counseling, I eventually sought counseling, but I had done a lot of the work already, myself.

Y, sin embargo, puedo ver cómo la terapia me habría ayudado a superarlo más rápido si la hubiera recibido veinte años antes. Creo que tienes toda la razón al decir eso. Lo explicaste bastante bien, creo. Podrías haber superado el proceso de sanación más rápido y mejor si hubieras recibido terapia antes. Y sé que todavía existe un gran estigma, en ciertas culturas, y la italiana es una de ellas, sobre recibir terapia.

When you said I don't my mother thought that the counseling was bad. I'm like, yeah. Because she was Italian. I could say that about, you know, you know, you said about, Greeks. You can say it about a lot of other a lot of other cultures.

No son solo los italianos. Pero mucha gente en el mundo aún tiene ese estigma, y creo que es especialmente más difícil para un hombre porque hay aún más estigmas al respecto, simplemente desde esa perspectiva. Así que, sí, poder recibir la terapia adecuada de alguien que mantenga tu hombría intacta mientras te aconseja, creo que es crucial. Porque a veces la gente dice: «Te voy a aconsejar y te voy a convertir en una chica». Pero no, no, señora.

You know, guys don't wanna hear that. They they still wanna keep their manhood intact as as they should, and there's nothing wrong with them feeling that way. So I think it's important of your approach. As people who are therapists and and counselors of any kind, that when we approach males on the subject, we have to keep that in mind, allow you to keep your man your manhood intact, you know, your masculinity intact while while approaching the subject. And I think I think there's a lot of people that don't get that.

You know, I can I'm not a man, but I do understand that. For and and I know that people have all kinds of different faith beliefs, but, I'm a strong Christian. And I look at Jesus Christ, and, a lot of people see that gentle side of him, which he was that, and that's what what men can be also. But he also had the times, like, when he flipped over the tables, when he has met at people who were abusing the they were selling they were abusing their their ability to sell things to people who had traveled a long way. He flipped over the tables, and there there's a time for that.

And there it seems like Sometimes he told these Pharisees off. Yeah. Definitely. Definitely. He'd he'd he spoke his mind and was very, very strong and then was Yep.

Was gentle when he needed to be. Yes. And that is a beautiful thing to bring up because you're absolutely right. People tend to see, oh, he was just this passive little, you know, little sissy Jesus, but he really wasn't. Not if you actually read scripture.

He he told Pharisees quite a few times because they needed to be. You know, he he was he was gentle and loving too, but that's not all he was. You know? He was he was balanced because you need to be a little bit of both. Yeah.

¿Das charlas en escuelas ahora mismo? Sí. Me encanta hablar con jóvenes de secundaria y preparatoria. Todavía no he cursado primaria, pero me encantaría hablar con ese grupo también. Y no importa el tamaño del grupo.

It could be just one classroom, or it could be a whole assembly of students. I actually like the smaller groups better, the classroom size, because people are going to open up a little bit more in that situation than in a big school wide assembly. So people can contact me at James Devine dot net if they'd like to find out more information about that. Yes. And thank you, thank you for coming on the show today, and thank you for being so open and honest in telling your story.

And I'm hoping that there are some young men and especially grown men out there who are listening that have the secret that are considering doing something about it now after hearing you. So you all heard about James' website where he can go. But, also, James has something special just for my audience, just for people who are listening to this podcast right now. What is that, James? So I've got several books that I've written, including one called Sad Boy, Joyful Man, and I it's a shortened version of my of my story, especially focusing on kind of my middle school years.

And I'd like to offer that absolutely free to anybody who would like it, and they just have to go to jamesdivine.net and click on the books and products link. And when they add that book, Sad Boy, Joyful Man, to their cart and enter the code mind shift, all as one word uncapitalized, then it will take off the the price of that, and they'll get a instant download of that as a PDF. That is so awesome. Thank you so much for offering that to to my to my listeners. And I hope that you see some results from that, and some people really take advantage of it, especially if you don't want anybody to know, but you wanna know how he got out of his story.

Ya sabes, adelante, escúchalo porque nadie sabrá que lo leíste. ¿De acuerdo? Gracias de nuevo, James, por venir. Este es un tema que creo que es sumamente importante tratar. Y gracias por tomarte el tiempo de hablar con nuestra audiencia. Muchas gracias por invitarme, Fátima.

Y ahora, un momento que te hará cambiar de opinión. Si estás escuchando ahora mismo y este episodio trataba sobre ti y aún no has hablado de ello ni has abordado el problema de haber sido abusado sexualmente, nunca es tarde para empezar, y aquí te explicamos por qué: reprimirlo y evitarlo no lo hace desaparecer. Reprimirlo y tratar de evitarlo hace que se propague por todo tu cuerpo como un virus.

It's it is right now affecting your life already. It is affecting your relationships. It is affecting how close you get to people because you don't wanna be hurt like that again. It is affecting your mindset, how you think and how you see yourself. It's affecting your job.

Afronta el problema porque ya te está afectando. Y hay esperanza para ti. Tu proceso de sanación y manejo puede ser diferente al de la otra persona, y eso está bien, pero acéptalo. Gracias por escuchar el podcast Mindshift Power. Dale "me gusta" y suscríbete a mi canal de YouTube en mind shifter.

Si tienes algún comentario, sugerencia de tema o te gustaría ser invitado al programa, visita FatimaBay.com/podcast. Recuerda, cambiar tu forma de pensar tiene poder. Sintonízanos la próxima semana.