Welcome to Mindshift Power podcast, a show for teenagers and the adults who work with them, where we have raw and honest conversations. I'm your host, Fatima Bey, the mind shifter. And welcome everyone. Today we have with us Brooke Guerin. She's a licensed clinical social worker in Illinois.

She's the owner of Uniquely You Behavioral Health, and also the owner of Affirming Minds Coaching and Consulting. And we're gonna talk about neurodivergence today or the neurodivergent. And she herself is also neurodivergent, which is awesome and one of the reasons I had her on the show today. How are you doing, Brooke? I'm doing really well.

Thanks for having me. Thank you for coming on. I think this is a a good subject to talk about. So let's start off with I like to dive right in. Let's start off with discussing what exactly does the word neurodivergent mean.

Sure. So neurodivergent is a very all encompassing term, that it refers to our brains. So it talks about our neurotype, and, it so there is a certain subset of the population whose brains diverge, divergent, from the norm. And so that is people who might be autistic, ADHD, have OCD, trauma, different things like that. Okay.

I like that explanation because I think a lot of times that word is used consistently, but I know for a fact that not everybody knows what it actually means. You know, sometimes I think when people use the word, they're only referring to people who are autistic or they're only referring to people who are whatever. Yep. Can you give us a few examples of what titles we'll hear, that fall under that category? Sure.

所以，通常，當我談論神經多樣性時，我總是會說一些關於自閉症、過動症、社交焦慮症，或任何影響一個人與他人互動能力的疾病。所以，我相信我們今天會討論很多關於自閉症和過動症的內容，以及一些關於社交焦慮症的內容。好的。那麼，說到神經多樣性，神經多樣性患者面臨哪些挑戰？完全正確。

夥計，有很多。你知道，我認為人們面臨的一些最大、最有害的事情，其實就是別人根據他們的診斷或標籤給他們施加的限制。對吧？例如，你可能患有多動症，所以你永遠無法保持條理，或者總是遲到。也可能是，如果你是自閉症患者，你沒有朋友，或不知道如何做某件事。

And I think that, really, people who are neurodivergent, their brains they're they're so different. Right? They, you've met one neurodivergent person. You've met one neurodivergent person. And I think that, you know, really the the biggest struggle that anybody that I work with and, myself included is those, barriers that other people put on us.

I think that is an excellent point, and that's actually what we're here to talk about today. I'm a big believer that we should not live under labels, neurodivergent or otherwise. Mhmm. Labels can be very limiting when we believe them. And I think that, labels are sometimes b s and or sometimes our our idea of that label could be what's b s.

Totally. I I I think that autistic people who are in the autistic autism spectrum are good example of what you just said. One one autistic person is not all of them. There's so much, so many variances, to them, and some of them you can't see it right off the bat, and some of them you can. You know?

對。你覺得是嗎？沒錯。如果要你從神經多樣性這一大類中選擇一個，而且是面臨最多挑戰的，你會說是自閉症嗎？還是我錯了？嗯，我認為這取決於你從哪個角度看待它。好的。

事實上，我認為當我們的身分認同出現交集時，我們才能談論人們面臨的最大挑戰。就診斷而言，如果只是診斷的話，我會坦誠地說，患有多動症的人面臨著最大的污名，比如被稱為懶惰，因為人們沒有意識到多動症是一種真正的診斷，而且它常常被歸咎為道德缺陷，或者他們只是沒有足夠努力而已。但是，從同樣的角度來看，當我們觀察自閉症女性時，由於診斷標準的限制，她們往往很晚才被診斷出來。我不知道這一點。這是為什麼呢？

I said I didn't know that. Why is that? Yeah. So some of that, is related to, some inherent sexism within the the diagnostic criteria. Looking at things like, well, if you can make eye contact, you're you're not autistic.

Or if you don't like I've I've actually heard Sykes say, if you don't like trains, you can't be autistic. Absurd. What? Right? Yeah.

Crazy. And, you know, when we look socially, and within our culture, right, like, often women aren't, you know, given a train as their first thing to play with. They're given a baby doll. Right? So we're we're training with off the bat, you know, to be, quote, unquote, nurturing, to be those roles and to have those attributes.

Right? We're training those attributes into them that are often and misappropriately so associated with autism of, like, oh, well, you're you care about others. You want to be around others, so you can't be autistic. And, that's just so not true. And, you know, I think that women, are kind of just better at masking, which is that act of, pretend.

對吧？我們很擅長演戲、假裝，該安靜的時候就安靜。對吧？這些都是女性的優秀特質。所以，在醫病關係中，我們常常因為自閉症而被忽略。

I think very often, and this goes beyond neurodivergence, really. Very often, we mistake labels for content. It's something I talk about a lot. I just find myself circling back to that subject just a lot. You know, we look at someone, we say, oh, you wear this label, so you must be this and that.

你知道嗎？你知道嗎？但這通常不是真的。通常非常非常不是真的。是的。

是的，我的確如此。在很多方面，我喜歡這樣說。我們看著一個罐頭，標籤上寫著一罐桃子，但打開後，裡面卻是青豆。我們常常這樣。我們覺得你是桃子，所以你甜美善良，但當我們嚐到你的味道，卻發現你不是桃子時，我們就會感到不安，因為你真的不是別人貼在你身上的那種標籤。

At least sometimes you are you are you that label belongs on you, but the contents are not what are not realistic. And that's why I think that this conversation is important. I think, you know, before I started having podcast and before I had personal conversations with a couple of people who were autistic, I didn't really have a full understanding. I still don't think I do, but I didn't have a full understanding of what neurodivergence is, you know, what autism really is. And, I'm kinda glad that I have this platform where I get to talk to people like you and a few others where I get to actually learn something because I know I'm not the only one who's that ignorant.

I know I'm not. You know? Mhmm. Now I wanna ask you. For people who are listening, who are like, why are we talking about neurodivergent or people with autism?

Or I don't really care because they're not my family, so I don't have to deal with them. Why should we care even if they're not in our family? Absolutely. You know, I think, one big reason is that, and and this is gonna get a little complex, but, neurodivergence can be acquired. So that means that if you have a traumatic brain injury, you get into a car accident.

Right? You can point. You can then engage with the world on a completely different neurological basis than you had before. Right? So we need to be making sure that our systems are accessible for people of all neurotypes because you might be fine today, and you may not, you know, even physically.

Right? You may be able to walk today, and we should still care about wheelchair access because you could lose access to your legs tomorrow. Same thing with our neurotype. And, you know, I think that it's the more that we talk about neurodivergence, the more that, we open up doors for people to be able to express their differences, the more that you're gonna find out. Right?

Like, you were just saying, hey. I actually didn't know that this person was neurodivergent. I didn't know that this person was autistic or that this person struggled with ADHD. And so if we're not talking about it and we're not making things accessible for others, you know, it can be possible that someday we ourselves acquire a neurodivergence. Right?

Or that someone that we really care about walks into our life, and maybe they've been masking their whole life, and they don't find out that they are autistic until they're 43. And that And I've seen that I've seen things like that happen, the different sort of diagnoses. And, some of them actually, now that I understand the the definition of neurodivergent, some of them were neurodivergent. They just didn't know because we didn't have the systems in place to really understand. Well, as a society, we didn't understand, I think.

我想回到過動症（ADHD）這個問題上，因為我覺得你提出了一個非常重要的觀點。我認為在此之前，許多30歲以上的人被視為懶惰或愚蠢，因為他們無法像我們其他人一樣集中註意力，他們的思維像松鼠一樣亂竄，你明白嗎？但事實並非如此。所以我想對正在聽我說話的朋友們說，也許你們已經30多歲了，終於意識到自己患有多動症，或者你們還年輕，才剛發現自己患有ADHD。有很多方法可以解決這個問題。

You're not you're not stupid. You're not lazy. You're not an idiot. You just have to find ways around it. You know?

And and I I've seen that where people have been all of their life under that label and because they're under that label. And let me let me rephrase that. Not under the label. Not labeled properly so they didn't know how to handle it, and they just felt like there was something wrong with them, and they're stupid, and they must and those type of thoughts lead to behavior that is not good for them. It leads to them not trying.

It leads to them not giving an effort. It leads to them limiting their own selves, which is what we're gonna talk about next. So, you know, the point of of today's episode is to really talk about not just okay. There's no divergent people around us, but what can they do? So we talked about some of the limits that we put on people.

Can we talk a little more in a little more detail of some of the limits that we put on other people who are neurodivergent? And then I wanna talk about what I wanna disband some of those beliefs. Sure. Yeah. So I think, one of my personal favorite things, to talk to kids and families about, especially when it relates to ADHD, is that, actually, there's a far higher percentage of CEOs that are ADHD than that are neurotypical.

哇哦。你知道，我認為過動症患者的一些負面特質，例如衝動，或者，你知道，在處理事情時非常有創意，這可以被理解為，逆潮流而動，或者固執己見，諸如此類。而這些恰恰造就了一位如此出色的CEO。對吧？因為他們願意創造和承擔風險。

They're willing to say, I don't know have all of the answers to this, and I'm alright with it, and I'm gonna go ahead with this, and I'm gonna give it a try. And so that is just a super cool thing that, you know, often we hear about the negative stats around ADHD, which is higher substance use or far more likely to, become incarcerated. And, yes, a lot of that has to often do with that impulse control piece, right, or self medicating with drugs or alcohol. But when we give ADHDers or other neurodivergent folks a place to grow and a place to flourish, We get CEOs. Right?

We get people who start their own businesses. We get entrepreneurs because they say, no. I don't have all the answers. But I'm pretty sure that I know almost everything about this subject because it's my hyperfocus. So I can make a business out of this.

That's fine. And then they're they're growing businesses. And so I think that that is one of the biggest, you know, misnomers that I like to talk about because, you know, when we talk about ADHD, everybody likes to bring up the negative stuff, but way too few people are like, yeah. And look at all those CEOs. Wow.

That's I'm so glad you brought that up. That is an absolutely excellent point. I did not know that about CEOs in particular. I know that every every negative can be turned into a positive when we want to, and that's just a general principle in life. Okay.

And I think this is no different. Let's talk about autism because I think that there are I think this is also very true with autism, but I'll I'll I'll let you tell it. What are some some positive outcomes that someone with who's listening, who is autistic, and maybe they have been treated as their limitations and only told, well, all you can do is, you know, be on SSI for the rest of your life. What can they do? And I know I wanna I wanna preface say, I know that every every autistic person is not at the same level.

So I am kinda speaking in general terms when I say that. Sure. So, truly, my belief is that people can do whatever it is that they wanna do. Yep. You know, I think that where a lot of the stereotypes about what autism looks like, comes from actually, co occurring disorders.

So, you know, someone with also a learning disability or someone with a developmental delay, not the autism itself. And so, you know, those we we haven't talked about them yet, but, you kind of alluded to some labels and functioning. And functioning labels are, honestly, one of the the biggest things that are incorrect in, when we talk about autism, because when you talk about someone who is, quote, unquote, low functioning, which in general, we don't use functioning labels because how rude to talk about somebody, as low functioning, especially right in front of them. But when we that's that stereotype. Right?

很多時候，有些人還患有其他疾病，影響他們與世界互動的能力，例如語言發展遲緩，或者…你知道，有很多疾病可能同時發生，但並非自閉症。這也是一些疾病被遺漏的原因之一。對吧？這就是為什麼，尤其是90年代及更早出生的嬰兒，必須被診斷為低功能障礙。你必須同時出現語言發展遲緩、學習障礙等症狀，對吧？

Whatever else to get the diagnosis because they weren't looking for, those other nuanced pieces of of autism that are, you know, inherent often in the way that that person is engaging with the world. So I guess to answer your question, because I went off on a little tangent. But, you know, I think that, yeah, really, autistic people can do whatever they they want to do. I think that, you know, we often talk when we talk about autism about people with hyperfocus or, a special interest. Take that hyperfocus.

抓住這份特別的興趣，然後去做點什麼吧。對吧？如果你喜歡動物，去動物園工作，或當獸醫。去做個獸醫技師，對吧？

如果你不喜歡上學，那就去做狗狗美容師吧。對吧？有很多事情我們可以利用人們的特殊興趣，並將其轉化為充實又賺錢的職業。絕對沒錯。我覺得你完全沒有離題，因為我覺得你說的非常貼切，也很重要。

I love I love that you focus on what people can do instead of what they can't do. You know? I I like focusing on that with people who are neuro normal just in general, because I I think that in life, we tend to once we have a label, oh, you can't do this because you're a woman. You can't do this because you're black. You can't do this because you're tall.

你不能這樣做，因為你是猶太人。等等等等，不管具體細節是什麼。這真的限制了你實際上能做的事情，因為事實上，我們所有的限制都是我們自己加諸於自身的。我真心相信這一點。而且我堅信，無論你所謂的「殘疾」是什麼，只要你願意，只要你下定決心，你就能把它轉化為能力。

But even if you don't have a disability, you can do that too, You know, just in life, it I don't think it changes because you have a neurodivergent label. It just changes how you do it. I don't change it. I don't think it changes that you do it. Do you know what I mean?

Yeah. And I and I think, you know, the it may change the pace in which you do it. It may pay Right. Change the structure in which you do it. And I think that when we are in supportive environments, that's when we can do whatever it is that we want.

Right? I think True. That the biggest thing, you know, for people listening and, you know, going back to that first question of, like, why should we care, is if we're giving people the best situations, the accommodations that they need to succeed, that's gonna help us succeed. Why would we not want to do that? Exactly.

沒錯。對吧？是的。我覺得我們通常壓力不大。是的。

對吧？我們可以自私一點。我希望其他人能得到他們需要的便利，你知道，讓他們過得更好，因為也許他們會成為下一個讓我的生活更輕鬆的人。也許他們會成為開發應用程式的人，為我改變遊戲規則，對，在我的生意裡。如果我們不提供這些便利，我們就沒有給他們成長和發展的空間，所以現在我得不到我想要的東西，也得不到讓我的生活變得更好的東西。

So even on, like, the most selfish level, we wanna give people spaces to do better, to be better minimally for ourselves. Well, no. It's you you brought a point that I'm I'm con I find myself constantly preaching this preaching this. We all need each other. As human beings, we are made to need, not just want, but need, n e e d, need other humans.

We are built that way. We need each other. And if we don't understand that, that's when we become selfish and stupid. We just do we do. We become selfish and stupid because we we Yeah.

We do stupid things because we don't understand that bigger picture element, you know, that the the you know, I I I can't think of any names right now, but I know that there have been people in the autism spectrum that have done great things for science. I've read about them. I don't remember any of the names right now, but that has happened. Imagine if they were just stayed in the little box and said, you're stupid. You just stay over here.

You know? And we might not use the words directly to say you're stupid, but we we say it with with our actions. You know? And or we just have that mentality which comes out in your in your actions and your attitude and how you view things. Everyone around us is carrying something important for us.

And if we all thought that way, we would treat people differently. And I think that is very relevant to this conversation. I think it's very important we just we we see people as necessary instead of I don't see your importance, so therefore, you're not necessary. Mhmm. And I think when we do that and, again, this goes beyond neurodivergence, but I know that, historically, we have done that as a society to people who are neurodivergent.

Once they have the label, we have this we have this put them in the the stupid category, whatever it is, or the lazy category or the whatever label you wanna give it, and that's wrong because you're you're now limiting what they can do. And, eventually, if everybody around you is telling you have this limit, you begin to believe them. Yeah. And that's bad. That's very discouraging.

So for those who are listening out there right now, what for those who are listening who are not neurodivergent, what can we do to make the world a better place for ourselves and them? Yeah. I think, educating yourself on neurodivergence. Right? You know, listening to a podcast like this, listening to the other episode that you've done on this and Mhmm.

你知道，從自閉症自我倡導者那裡尋找訊息，了解神經多樣性人群的需求。你知道，神經多樣性人群的這個「保護傘」裡還牽涉到什麼？我該如何打造我的教室、啦啦隊或棒球隊？我該如何為其他人創造更好的空間？我認為首先要審視我們自己。

對吧？我需要什麼？無論出於什麼原因，例如我是男人，所以我需要堅持下去，或者，嗯。你知道，我是女人，所以我需要克服它。我需要什麼？我不允許自己擁有什麼？對吧？

Why am I not allowing myself to have those things? And then what's so darn bad about letting myself and others have those things? Right? If I don't like that the overhead lights are on and they give me a headache, why am I not raising my hand in class and saying, hey. I got a headache from those overhead lights.

Can we just use a lamp today? What what is stopping us? Right? You know, there's a good chance that there are other people in that same room that don't want the overhead lights on. You're saying that's alright.

Yeah. There you know, what are what are the things that are going on, you know, with your body? Right? Why why are you choosing to wear the clothes that you're wearing? Is it because your mom told you you had to?

Is it because that's what the cool kids wear? Or is it because that's what's comfortable and that's how you learn the best? I'm not going to wear blouses to work. They're uncomfortable. It's not happening.

I'm gonna sit in a therapy session that whole day or in this podcast recording, and I'm gonna be playing with my shirt. Instead, I'm in a comfy sweater because I'm not wearing a blouse. It's just not happening. Yeah. I I get that.

When I know those things, right, when we give ourselves those permissions, we're better, nicer people. You're absolutely right. And we don't realize all the restrictions we put on our minds. And a lot of times, we put our minds in jail. But the truth is we have a key.

我們隨時都可以離開，只是我們自己沒意識到而已。不過，這也是另一個話題了。不過，能跟你聊天真的非常非常開心。那麼，人們要怎麼找到你呢？

是的。如果您正在尋找諮詢服務或治療，可以造訪我們的私人診所。我們提供神經回饋和職能治療服務，網址為 uniquelyyoubehavioralhealth.com。如果您有興趣，我們的 Facebook 和 Instagram 帳號也同樣支持「行為健康」。如果您是一位希望學校做得更好的家長，或者一位希望您的大學、高中或任何您就讀的教育體系能夠更好地服務於您自己或您的同學的學生，歡迎收聽我們的節目。

我的工作是為雇主提供肯定性思考、指導和諮詢服務。我與學校合作，為各種神經多樣性人群提供更具包容性和肯定性的空間。太好了。再次感謝布魯克今天來參加我們的節目，與我們討論這個主題。即使只是在這次談話中，我也學到了很多，比我想像的還要多。

很高興和你聊天，再次感謝你的到來。太棒了！非常感謝。現在進入一個思維轉換的時刻。我想今天在你的腦海裡種下一顆思想種子。

Today, we talked about taking the limits off of the neurodivergent, but I wanna talk about a big picture idea related to that. I want you to think right now about all of your shortcomings, all the reasons you can't do what you wanna do. Now hold that thought. Now I want you to think about all of the ways you can get around that roadblock. I want you to picture a road, and that thing you wanna do is on the other side of it.

And all the reasons you think you can't do it are in the middle of that road. You are driving that car. How can you get around it? There's absolutely nothing you want to do that you cannot do. The choice is yours.

Thank you for listening to Mindshift Power Podcast. Please like and subscribe to my YouTube channel at the mind shifter. If you have any comments, topic suggestions, or would like to be a guest on the show, please visit FatimaBay.com/podcast. Remember, there's power in shifting your thinking. Tune in for next week.