Welcome to Mindshift Power podcast, a show for teenagers and the adults who work with them, where we have raw and honest conversations. I'm your host, Fatima Bey, the mind shifter. And welcome everyone. Today, we have with us Sarah Deacon, the adulting coach. She is out of Wisconsin.

Something I really, really love about her is that she keeps it real. So today, we're gonna be talking about the title is I don't wanna go to college. We're gonna talk about what the other alternatives are to to college and how we should be thinking about them. So, Sarah, how are you today? I'm great, fun.

Fatima, I'm really glad to be here. And I'm glad to talk to you. You're you're a joy to talk to. So tell us, you're an adulting coach. What the heck is an adulting coach?

I, the adulting coach is something I chose as my title and branding because I got sick of hearing over and over how hard and stupid and annoying adulting is because I'm out here having the time of my life, and I'm not sure what everybody else is talking about. So I am starting to just kind of spread the message that adulting can be fun and being able to shift your mindset and your perspective about the more challenging things that come to us in life is something that's really useful and foundational for living a purposeful, passionate life, in the world. And when more people have that attitude of, like, oh, hey. This isn't so bad. I can make this fun.

Oh, I'm excited about this challenge. Then we get to actually enjoy our life because if we're not having fun, what are we doing? So that is that is why I chose to play in the realm of adulting, and and change change our perspective about it. I love that you chose that title. It's something that's a little bit different.

Not so I like it when people are just not so typical. So blah. And you're definitely not a typical person, which is one of the reasons you're on the show. Alright. Now let me ask you this silly question.

每個人都該上大學嗎？絕對應該。 100% 應該。每個人都應該上大學。不。

不，不。因為，沒有萬能的辦法。是的，你說得對。

我的意思是，每所大學都不一樣。所以，如果你真的想上大學，找到合適的大學非常重要。但如果你不確定要不要上大學，還有很多學習的方式。就像我小時候那樣，大學並不是我們每個人都需要的東西。現在回想起來，我當時真的需要嗎？

也許是，也許不是。但是，是的，學習的方式有很多，而且你可以免費參加大學程度的課程。例如，你不用去學校註冊，也不用支付學費。

You can learn whatever you wanna know for free, which is sometimes a little overwhelming. Or for practice. So many options. Depending on what you yeah. Depending on what you're talking about.

But, yeah, that learning is isn't just doesn't just happen on college campuses. And we've been trained to think, the puppet masters have taught us that college is the the way to go because if you don't go to college, you're a loser. Right? Yeah. I mean, I I work with clients a lot of the time in the gap year where they have actually either have chosen proactively or it has been chosen for them to take a break from school.

And sometimes that's be you know, a result of academic probation or they started some somewhere and it didn't work out the way they wanted it to or they expected it to. And and in the gap year, I I see young people, 19, 20, 20 one years old, their peers are the ones who are saying, oh, you're not going to college? What a loser. And that's like, woah. That breaks my heart because You know what though?

They are really like, they're trying to figure out without spending tens of thousands of dollars on tuition. They're trying to figure out what's what's their right next step. I think it's brilliant to take take a step back and really get clear about where you wanna go. Right. You mentioned a big keyword that I wanna talk about that kinda segues into what I was gonna talk about next anyway.

What are the college alternatives? And you mentioned gap year. For those who are listening, and there's many people who really don't know what that is. So can you please explain to the audience what is a gap year? Well, the way I look at a gap year is it is a it might be a year.

It might be longer. It is taking a step back from academia, whether it's between a senior year of high school and high school graduation before enrolling and beginning a college program. Or if it's during college, taking a break, sit taking some time off. Sometimes it's a semester. One client, it was going to be a gap year, but it ended up being a semester because of the way, we were able to sort of accelerate her goal setting.

So it's some it's a step back. It's some time off to figure it out, to figure out what is the right next step. And like I said, for some, it's a it's a year. Generally, a year is a good amount of time because colleges, universities sometimes, build that into some of their programming where they they actually will support students taking a gap year, and you get some guidance and planning around it. The fear that comes up when that term gap year comes up, especially when I'm talking to parents, is that a gap year leads to a bump on the log in my basement never to leave.

So and that's and that's something that, again, why I've sort of specialized a little bit in the in guiding through the gap year is to assure parents that these kids, they they don't want to live at home forever. They don't want to mooch off the system. They don't want to mooch off their parents. They want to find meaning and purpose and something that they're excited about to do with their lives. They just don't always know how or how to go about it.

And that's where I come in or a gap year program. There is a there's a lot more gap year programs, like, officially tied to universities or other nonprofits or different, student organizations, there are a lot of gap year program options out there that give that structure and direction to time away from school. Because that's a lot of times when kids do go to college or start working after high school, it is, I have freedom. I have a job or I have you know, my needs are all still met, but they just kinda go off the rails and don't really know what, what responsibility really looks like and how to take control of the sudden freedom that they have because they've been structured for twelve years of of school Right. Right.

Up up to that point. And then, okay, you're officially an adult. You have freedom between classes. You don't have, like, a Monday through Friday, seven to three schedule anymore. So they kinda there's this risk of blowing it all because they just, you know, don't know what to do with all the freedom that they then have.

So having some structure around a gap year is really important. Yes. And I think, to to kinda piggyback off a little bit of what you just said, that's a key thing that I see happen a lot, and I know other adults listening see it happen. And I I even know some college students and teenagers that have seen it happen to other people. Mhmm.

Your structure you have the structure for twelve years, of schooling. You're in twelfth grade, and now you're graduating. And now you're just going to college. Okay. You're an adult now.

Bye. And it's like, if you haven't been trained for that, you are more likely to screw it up because you don't know what you're doing. You don't know what you want. If you have been trained, you know what you want, awesome. Then you probably will do well.

但是，很多人不這麼做。這就是為什麼我認為我確實相信間隔年項目，但我也同意你剛才說的話。這需要平衡。間隔年專案不適合那些只想著「哦，我想讓我爸媽閉嘴一年，所以我就去間隔年」的人。如果你還沒弄清楚這些事情，間隔年計畫真的能幫你找到答案。

因為如果你不這麼做，你就會成為那些上了大學卻拿到了用不上、根本不在意的學位，或是去學習你極度討厭的專業的人。間隔年專案可以幫助你避免所有這些。雖然不能保證每個人都能成功，但它確實能提高你成功的可能性。所以，除了間隔年專案之外，還有其他適合你的專案。

For those of you who are listening, there are gap year programs out there in America, all over America, actually. But what are the other college alternatives that people should be considering? Yeah. There's, there's probably more than I will even talk about on this episode. But, I mean, the the other, you know, big option is going right into the workforce.

Like, get a job at a bank or a car dealership or, you know, a relative's company or something. You know? Just get a job. Like, that's totally valid option. And, ideally, you'll want to maybe start at an entry level position in a in a field where you have some interest in, you know, in pursuing and growing and learning.

But even if you just work at Costco or a food service restaurant, waiting tables, whatever it is, like, if you go into the workforce, you're still learning valuable skills. You're learning to interact with people. And and those are all transferable to the, kind of career type jobs that you can have in the future, even if you're just kind of starting out and you're not sure where you wanna end up. That's okay. Get a job.

全職工作。而且，你知道，夥計，我是個小企業主，我去過很多小企業社群，他們好像都找不到好人。我們很樂意培訓、指導這個領域的年輕人。所以，是的。去尋找小企業主，看看他們願意在什麼地方與你見面，即使你沒有大學學位。

Because a lot of us, we we understand that college is not the be all end all. If you have the skills it you know, if you have the attitude and the hunger and the the desire to learn, we can train you on the skills. We can set you up with the courses that you need to do the Microsoft suite or whatever it is that that you need to do. So There are no more small businesses out there that do that than I think people realize. So I'm glad that you brought that up.

For sure. I know someone who started off at a collection agency just as a collector. This is yours start and ended up being the assistant VP of the company, and they were a Fortune 500 company. So I think it was Fortune 500 or somewhere up on one of those lists because there's more than just that list. But they were on the big, they were they were, you know, they were a big deal on Wall Street.

So, she ended up moving up, you know, there and, you know, she's just started off as an employee. So Right. You know? Right. And there are so many ways to connect to what you're doing and find the bigger purpose and meaning in it.

Even if you are flipping burgers or telemarketing or collection agent, There are aspects to a job that you can connect with and find fun in. You know, so making it making a game of how many calls you you can make or how many, you know, collections you can collect or, oh, let's make sure that, so and so is feeling good today or whatever it is. Like, what if it's the people around you serving your fellow employees and staff or serving your customers or creating something with the with the food or whatever that you're doing. There are so many ways to find that connection and meaning in work that may not be your every every day or long term, all the time forever career. So there are ways to to use that.

Again, turning it to the fun. Yeah. It might suck to have to call people all the time and ask for money. That might be a really sucky job. But if you can find something that you can connect to in that everyday space, you can change the perspective.

And and when you're having fun at work, you're more likely to get promoted, to get recognized, to get to get where you wanna go because you have the the attitude of, oh, this isn't just a grind. I'm actually making a difference in this way. So that's another way to sort of change your perspective about those entry level jobs that could lead you to those fortune 500 VP positions. Yeah. Let's talk about the other alternative, but I think not enough people think about trade school.

Oh, trade school. I I I was hoping this would be the next one we talked about. I love the trade school option. I think it's brilliant. And I think I think that in a few years, we are gonna see a shift.

去年早些時候，我在一所高中旁聽了一堂經濟學課。當時他們正在討論一張圖表，比較有大學學位和沒有大學學位的人在整個職業生涯中可以預期的收入水平。結果發現，兩者之間仍然存在顯著的差距。擁有大學學位的人終身收入仍然較高。但話雖如此，我認為我們會看到轉變。

我不知道這些數字是否考慮了人們在學校欠下的債務，例如學生貸款，因為，是的，你的收入，你的薪水可能會有所不同。但如果你仔細想想，如果你的薪水比預期少了幾萬美元，但你不用償還幾萬或幾十萬美元的學校債務，那麼你實際上賺的錢會更多。是的，是的。在你的職業生涯中。而且我認為交易是一種非常棒的方式。

So, yeah, going going into an apprenticeship or trade school is a really, really valid option. My husband is a HVAC maintenance tech and that he is college educated. He has not done that his whole life, his whole career. He he switched in midlife, and it it it's been really, really great for our family. The the company he's with takes excellent care of him.

You know, you can get involved with a union or not. My husband's not in a union shop, and the the place he works takes great care of their employees. Mhmm. And there is a camaraderie, and there's so there's so many benefits. And working with his hands, I think he just finds a lot of, satisfaction in that.

So, yeah, again, there are so many ways to learn or things to learn on those jobs. So, you know, electronics and, electricians and builders and oh my gosh. I know so many people in those fields that, again, they are they're dying for good people. I wanna read some numbers. I wanna, I brought up that because I I wanna talk about mechanics in particular.

Mhmm. Because I think they're a great example of everything you just said. So Yeah. The the for an auto for automotive design engineer. So for an engineer, the average and this is average because it's gonna be different each state.

但平均薪資大約是7.9萬美元。汽車技師的平均薪資約為6.5萬美元。所以他們每年多賺10美元。不過，我們來談談大學期間的債務。我真的認為汽車修理工實際上賺得更多，因為我確信他們有更多錢。對吧。

Bringing home more, being able to save more. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Because at the end of the day, it's not just how much do you make on paper at the end of the year.

So much are you actually very at home? And if you are, you know, many, many, many, many thousands of dollars in debt, which they typically are or have been, you're really that's not really what you're making, you know, because it's not really what you're taking home. And the outlook of both the the outlook of, job job, perspectives, for both jobs is about the same. So it it's it's not that one is better than the other, but we're taught that one is better than the other, and that's not true. You know, at the end of the day taught that that piece of paper makes a big difference, that that degree makes a difference.

And it, you know, it can for some Yeah. For men you know, a lot of different fields. Like, you Certain you need a degree. Yeah. Yeah.

Certain, positions within the field, it can be. So it does depend on what in detail you're going into. But overall, and I'm saying that to to just kinda prove a point that sometimes we need to look at trade schools and stop looking at them as, oh, that's a blue collar job. That's lesser. Not not really.

Not when you look at the the whole bigger picture and not just numbers that number only. Those have been our essential workers for the last four years. Right? Like, those are our essential people are the people on the trades, the people that make the world go. Not only do they pay less for school, they spend less time in school.

Right. Well, and that's the thing too is, like, doing an apprenticeship or doing a a couple years at a trade school, like, that can be a great stepping stone too to to decide if, okay, well, this is good. I am, like, interested in this or, oh, maybe I should go to college. You know, that can be a great learning tool, a great stepping stone for those who might not be sure about college. And it's like, yeah, try out a trade.

Go do some job shadowing. Start an apprenticeship. Like, figure it out and then decide. Oh, yeah. Trade school is it.

或者我應該研究一下四年制專案。就像，你不踏入其中，踏出第一步，你永遠不會知道。我覺得你剛才說的有點過渡到我接下來要講的內容。現在你已經談了一些，你知道，人們可以透過不同的方式找到自己想做的事情。你知道，我們討論過間隔年。

間隔年是個好主意的原因之一是，如果你不確定下一步該怎麼做，為什麼要浪費時間去負債，或是背負經濟債務？或者還有情感債務、身體債務和時間債務。金錢不是唯一的資源。

So why go into debt in one form or another into something that you're not sure about? Okay. Gap year is good. What are some of the ways other than gap year program and, you know, just trying to work a job to figure out what you wanna do? What are some of the other ways that someone can figure out what's for them?

Yeah. That that's a fantastic question. There are a couple tools I use in my coaching. So some of those, like, personality tests or self assessment tools that, that are out there, I use one for defining top five core values. I tend to narrow it down to three or even one, but we we talk about top five core values.

我會做一個叫做「熱情測驗」的練習，它不像那種「通過/失敗」的測驗。它是一種自我評估，它能讓你找到真正與你產生共鳴的方向，就像我之前說的，在一份沒有前途的工作中，找到那份仍然讓你感到閃耀的東西。例如，也許你擅長與人打交道。也許你是一位領導者。我有個客戶，沒錯。

一個高中時參加運動的年輕人，我會問他，比賽進行得怎麼樣？這次錦標賽怎麼樣？你最引以為傲的是什麼？同樣，我也不指望他會回答什麼。我會說，好吧，嗯，你知道，我以某種方式擊球，或者我擊球得分了多少分。

It was sort of maybe, like, something you would expect them to say. But what he said was, well, I really liked how I rallied my team when we needed to level up. I was like, oh, interesting. And, you know, the the the trajectory that he was on was taking a path into college, a higher education in a field that, to me, I don't know much about data science, but it doesn't seem like it's a very people centric day to day job. So Mhmm.

他確實有優勢。他的優勢體現在數據、數字和邏輯方面，你知道，邏輯方面。但和他共事，我覺得，請務必關注他們的領導機會，是的。你知道，在商業、團隊建立、專案管理方面，你或許可以擔任一些可以團結人心的角色，因為這正是他對自己表現的重視。對吧？

So that's where things like that come in is doing that self evaluation, that reflective feedback. What did I really like about this experience? Whether it's a a class or a, speech or a a job shadow experience. What did I like about how I performed or how I fit? And then Mhmm.

What would I do to change it? What would I do differently if I had it to do over again? So that's just a little bit of self evaluation feedback after the fact. And I think, you know, with the amount of distractions and, addictions to screens and things like that, we don't always take the time to sit with our own selves and say, did I really like that, or is that someone else's voice telling me, oh, that was awesome? So that's why it's important to have some sort of outside something that can nudge you to to ask yourself those questions so that you can get to the heart of, like, what do I value?

What do I like? The one thing I'm gonna pull out of what you said is, and I'm talking to the audience right now. Listen. Take some self assessment like Sarah said, but look at the principles behind your passions, not just the details. So you might like sports, but what you really like sports what you like about sports is the fact that you can, as Sarah said, rally up your team.

那是一個領導角色。那其實是一個教練角色。而且，你知道，是的。看看你熱衷的事情背後的原則。嗯，我喜歡在那個中心工作。

為什麼喜歡在那個中心工作？因為我可以為年輕人提供諮詢。我可以和年輕人交談，幫助他們理清自己的人生。所以，也許諮商對你有好處。也許你應該去看看心理治療。

There you know, look at look at the principles behind what excites you. And, if you get someone like myself or Sarah, we can help you figure that out. You know? Get get to figure out the principles behind because everything else is just details. You can take that principle, that that pass that principle that you have that passion for and apply it to many things.

And sometimes you just don't even realize what you have a passion for. Do you do it? You know, I'm always bringing up the fact that I do wedding gowns and, yes, I'm doing it again. So I do wedding gowns. I make and design wedding gowns.

Right? And, and I'm a, you know, master seamstress. But I wouldn't be so if I hadn't worked at a bridal shop first. I never in a million years knew that I had the passion for for for the bridal industry that I do, the passion for helping people to look pretty and getting their dresses. I would not have known that if I hadn't first worked at a bridal shop.

And then I got promoted to alteration manager. And then from there, it said, okay. I wanna start my own business. I'm gonna sell wedding gowns because, hey, I can. And there's not a lot of people who can do it, so why not?

And then I found out, oh my god. I have a passion for heirloom wedding gowns. All of those things came from experiences. They weren't plans. They were experiences that opened up something for me.

And my point in saying all of that to to I'm talking to you audience right now. The listeners, my point in saying all of that is that that can be true for you too. As Sarah said earlier, you know, try something. And if you don't like it, fine. Move on.

Do something else. But try it until you find something that you're like, oh my god. I love this. Now what how can I move up in this? Or how can I do more with this and make what I I make what I wanna make doing this thing?

You know? I just wanna add that in there. Yeah. I've heard I've heard a quote, clarity comes from action. Yeah.

因為有時候如果你不確定該做什麼，那就去做吧。但另一件事其實是問自己，我真正想要什麼？是的。我這樣做是因為有人告訴我應該這樣做嗎？對。

Or do I really want it? Do I does it really light me up? And I find that a very threatening question when somebody asks me that question because we don't even as a coach, I don't always take the time to decide this is what I want. And and then that one for one step further, actually asking for what I want. So we're not gonna get what we want if we don't ask for it.

We're not gonna be able to ask for what we want if we don't know. So it it steps back from there. And so sometimes clarity comes from action. Sometimes it comes from asking. So we're gonna, we're gonna hammer that a little bit.

I think I actually think I'm glad that you put it that way because I actually think it both are equally important. We don't live on an island by ourself. It's important that we ask questions. But it's also important that we don't just ask questions and we put action to to figure things out. You're not gonna figure things out by looking at a screen.

Honestly, you're really not. Or a chalkboard or just staring at somebody. You're gonna figure it out by asking questions and then doing stuff. That's how we figure out just about everything in life, not just careers. Yep.

Now, Sarah now, Sarah, how can people find you? People can find me on my website. That's probably the best way to do it. It's sarahdeacon.com. Very simple.

網站上有一個有趣的測驗，你可以直接訪問 sarahdeacon.com/quiz。它會彈出一個窗口，是成年人的“你的成年分數是多少”測驗。你可以在網站上進行自我評估。這是一個快速有趣的小測驗，可以讓你思考成年生活中哪些地方比較有趣，哪些地方比較無趣，以及你做得怎麼樣，與標準如何。所以，請登入 sarah deacon.com。

And that I assume will be in your your show notes Absolutely. Yep. To, to find me. And I'm also all over social media at sarah deacon coach. And she is.

You should follow her because she's kinda funny. I I like to play. I like to if I'm not having fun, then by me saying adulting is fun, you're not gonna believe me if I'm not having any fun. You're right. You're absolutely right.

你說得完全正確。莎拉，無論是在節目上還是在節目外，和你聊天都很愉快。謝謝你今天的到來。是的，非常感謝你的邀約。

And now for a mind shifting moment. I wanna take a moment and just talk to some of the adults who are listening to this episode. You may have made a career choice a long time ago that you're now stuck in or you feel stuck in. I want you to take go back and listen to this episode again, and start applying the principles of what we talked about to yourself. It is never too late to start a new career.

現在，你可能需要一邊工作一邊重返校園，或者一邊上課，或者一邊學習任何你感興趣的專業，但做出你現在意識到早就應該做出的改變永遠不會太晚。你從事的職業適合你嗎？這只是一些值得思考的問題。感謝收聽“Mindshift Power”播客。請按讚並訂閱我的YouTube頻道「Mind shifter」。

If you have any comments, topic suggestions, or would like to be a guest on the show, please visit fatimabay.com/podcast. Remember, there's power in shifting your thinking. Tune in for next week.