歡迎收聽「思維轉換力量」播客，這是一檔面向青少年及其相關成年人的節目，我們將在這裡進行坦誠而直接的對話。我是主持人法蒂瑪貝，思維轉換專家。歡迎大家收聽。今天我們邀請到了珍妮絲·福米塞拉，她是我們的常客。

She's been on here before. She is out of Denver, Colorado. She is a dating and breakup coach and a podcast producer. So she specializes in today's topic. Today, we're gonna talk about something that most of us have experienced, and that's talking about breakups.

青少年時期也會發生這種情況，成年後也會發生。我們以為情況不同，但其實並非如此。我們接下來會討論這個問題。 Janice，你今天過得怎麼樣？

我很好。非常感謝。謝謝你們邀請我回來。這是一個非常重要的主題。是的。

It is. And and I think it's something that most people can relate to. So let's just dive right into it as I always do. Why are breakups so hard? There are so many reasons.

顯然，你會失去一個你真正在乎的人。尤其是成年人，痛苦的原因之一就是失去了你投入如此之多的未來。我們很多人會自然而然地非常在意一段關係的最終結果，而這真的會讓人震驚不已。對每個人，尤其是青少年來說，影響更大的是，分手之所以如此困難，主要原因或許在於我們與他人形成了成癮、緊密的連結和習慣。當這個人從我們的生活中消失時，可能會非常痛苦，因為正如我接下來會談到的，分手與有害物質成癮非常非常相似。

And so your body, your system, your entire, network become is completely jarred and needs to have that person in your life in order to feel better, and it can be really, really difficult to kind of wean off of that. But but but I was so in love with Johnny. I wasn't addicted to him. He was just my everything. I mean, we used to hang out all the time and do everything together, and we talked on the phone all the time, and I just really miss him.

I know I mean, that is that is completely true. But you just said something really interesting that I I especially, like I just said, teens can relate to is talking on the phone all of the time, texting constantly, being in almost, you know, being in ongoing communication and engagement with this person via the cell phone almost every day. And that actually does form an addiction to the the person. And you get so so so used to that dopamine hit that you get every single time that you connect, that when the person is taken away from your life, removed, chooses to exit your life, it can be very, very hard to readjust. And this is why people have also such a hard time not texting, have such a hard time not continuing to engage and have contact with an ex, this is why people find it really, really, really hard to stay away from their ex's social media channels, is because they're so used to that dopamine hit that you receive when you engage with the person.

Even if it's looking at their photos, even if it's painful, you're still going to crave it. That's a very interesting, analogy that you use, the addiction. And I never quite thought of it with the word addiction, but I I think of it as, forming habits. There principle wise, it is the same thing, is what you're saying. You know, we're used to this person.

那麼，我們該如何區分愛上一個人和僅僅沉迷於他呢？無論如何，如果你與某人處於一段忠誠的關係中，或者任何類型的關係中，並且你感受到了這些感覺，你就會自然而然地創造出一些習慣性甚至成癮性的方式來回應他們的交流。所以，無論這是否是愛，你仍然會如此習慣於生命中擁有這個人，以至於當它被帶走時，你會感覺到有東西被切斷了。這也是為什麼有些人會一次又一次地陷入複合的循環中的原因之一，因為即使確定這段關係不健康，他們仍然很難斷絕關係，以至於他們會一直陷在這種循環中。有些人會在這個斷斷續續的循環中度過多年。

Mhmm. So it's not really a matter of whether or not it's love. It's just it's a matter of what you do as a couple, particularly when it comes to communicating with each other. You said a keyword there, Janice, and, that's that's what I was trying to get at. It's really not just a matter of love.

And in our society, we're taught that love is everything, and we should all have pretty feelings and butterflies coming out of our butts. It's all about love. Mhmm. And and it's true that love exists and love is real and important, but that is a small portion of the equation. Yes.

And that it's really important because a lot of people will experience so much intense pain after a breakup and find it just, like I said, impossible to stop some form of engagement, that they will convince themselves that the reason why they're struggling so much is because it must be meant to be or the love must just have been or is that deep, and that is why it's so hard to move on. When in reality, it is just because this is what naturally happens when you separate from someone who you've been used to having in your life. It's painful for everyone, and you can commit and invest to your healing rather than convincing yourself that everything is going to feel better if you get back with the person. I wanna go a lot back and emphasize on a key key key important thing that you just said. It's meant to be.

嗯。沒錯。我們真的這麼相信，是因為好萊塢電影主要灌輸給我們的那些垃圾。反正我們美國人的許多想法都來自此，因為其他文化並非如此。但身為美國人，我們對愛情的理解或觀念，很大程度上來自電影。

It's not only movies. What we see at home matters, too. But, you know, the movies, they dictate the culture or media. And mostly for as Americans, it's movies is our major media where we get these kind of ideas from, that dictate where, you know, where what we think of as normal, and healthy and what what a romantic relationship should look like, blah blah blah blah blah. And TV because in in television shows, you have series of, you know, seasons that go on for years where they often will show couples doing the on again off again thing for years.

所以，我們常常接觸到這種關係中很少有成功案例的動態。但這種想法在我們心中根深蒂固，如果一對情侶真心相愛，而且真的命中註定，他們可能會這樣相處多年，最終走到一起。而實際上，這種循環非常不正常，會損害一個人繼續生活，建立真正健康的感情關係的能力。我只是想在這裡向觀眾強調一下，因為這和她剛才說的完全相關。普通的事情並不意味著它就正常。

Mhmm. Those are two different things. It could be average to kick a baby down the street, but would any of us call that normal? No. Just because something is average doesn't make it normal.

But going back to it's meant to be, I think very often, and I I I really wanna emphasize this because I I wanna mind shift people out of this thinking that just because you've been with someone for a while and you've grown attached or as Janice says, they're addicted to this person or their personality or being around them or whatever does not necessarily mean that they're good for you, that you're meant to be that your soulmates or whatever verbiage you want to give it. It just means that you've gotten used to and comfortable with that person, period. And this is why. And I know that you'll have something to say about this too, Janice. This is why it is so important that we are mindful of who we get into relationship with in the first place.

Yeah. Because we grow these addictions and these attachments to these people, whether they're right for us or not. You're like, well, it's so hard to find a man. I'm just gonna stick with this one. It's so far hard to find a good woman, and she's she's just right in these certain areas.

So therefore, I'm just gonna stick with her. And that doesn't necessarily mean that they're good for you. Yes. I'll make two points. I'm loving this conversation so far.

First of all, one of my driving philosophies around breakups and coming to the acceptance that it needed to happen is that no relationship wait. Let me start that over. Relationships always, always, always end because they weren't working in some way. If you were meant to be together and if things were that great, you wouldn't have broken up in the first place. I've never been proven wrong with with this concept.

It always ends because there was something about it that was not functional. As good as it seemed at some points, there's eventually, it got to the point where it was not working anymore. Either otherwise, you would stay together. So and that is really, really hard for people to accept. And I work with my clients on this all the time, kinda like play like, having them debate that with me.

And I've never, like I said, never been proven wrong. And that's something important to to remind yourself of. It can be really, really hard to accept that when you miss the person and you're remembering the happy memories. Mhmm. But it it ended because it needed to.

I think it's important to clarify, something on the point you just said. Sometimes it depends on what's not working. Because sometimes if what's not working is something that you both need to work on, doesn't necessarily mean that you shouldn't be together, for example, communication. If it's if it's something that someone you're not communicating and maybe you just you needed to go through this breakup not even a breakup, but argument or or hassle or stress, whatever it is, you needed to go through this confrontation to recognize you're not effectively communicating, and if you're willing to work on it, that's something that could be worked on. Something that to your point, if you're if you're breaking up and it's not about communication, there's personality differences, maybe you're not right with the right person.

And that so I think sometimes we have to look at not everything in, like, one big blanket, but, you know, that why did you break up? Is was it a communication thing? Is he or she cheating? Because that ain't cute. Well, either then, I mean, a lot of people a different issue.

You know? A lot of people break up just simply because they don't want to be in the relationship anymore. Well, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So many reasons, and that's as good of a reason as any. If you don't want to do it, then you shouldn't.

至於溝通，我完全贊成夫妻雙方學習如何更好地溝通。是的，我對此非常熱衷，而且我自認為在這方面很擅長，因為我付出了很多努力。但如果問題出在溝通上，那麼問題就在於雙方都沒有全心投入學習溝通。你明白我的意思嗎？所以，這其中還是存在一些不太實用的地方。

有些人還沒準備好談戀愛，因為他們還不夠成熟。如果你不想學習如何溝通，那你就不應該談戀愛。你不是。你就是，我就是這個意思。如果你不願意在任何一段關係中，為了成功而付出努力，無論對方是誰，你都還不夠成熟，無法談戀愛。

我不在乎你是13歲還是33歲，都一樣。有時候，當我們回想起青少年時期，作為成年人，我們會想當然地認為，因為青少年還小，所以他們就年輕、愚蠢，你知道，一切都與此有關。不，事實並非如此。

Mhmm. They the teenagers go through the exact same emotions that all the rest of us go through. Oh, yes. More intense props. And sometimes it might be the first time they're going through these emotions.

Sometimes it's not. You'd be surprised. Mhmm. I was saying this to Janice earlier, but and I'm talking to the audience right now. Don't assume that your 16 year old is the same 16 year old that you were when you were younger.

這一代確實不同。他們在10歲左右的時候，就會經歷重大的情緒變化。我很抱歉。請繼續。好吧，我只是想說，作為一個父母，或者說，作為這個人生活中的長輩，我會說，這絕對是一種認同，就像你認同其他人的分手一樣。

I know I think my first breakup when I was a teen, my parents hadn't even wanted me to be dating in the first place. Right. And so I'm keeping it a secret this whole time. And then when the breakup happened, I was shattered. I couldn't eat.

我覺得，我的意思是，我第一次心碎的時候，那種感覺非常非常強烈。每天回家卻無法和父母傾訴，這讓我非常非常痛苦和困惑，讓一切變得更糟。我還要說，對於青少年來說，這可能很難的一個原因是他們缺乏尋求支持的能力或知識。我想說，是的，一定要學會這一點。如果你是這個人生活中的成年人，也許可以主動站出來，提供一些幫助。

Yes. And, just to, just to reiterate what what Janice was just saying, don't when you have a teenager, don't brush them off as young and dumb or overemotional. Mhmm. Their emotions are real. What they're experiencing is really not any different than what we're experiencing as adults.

但是，你知道，正如Janice剛才所說，有時候他們不知道該如何應對，也不知道該如何尋求幫助。但千萬不要這樣做，最糟糕的做法就是假裝“哦，你會再找一個”，然後裝作若無其事。因為當你對正在聽的成年人這樣做時，你實際上是在告訴他們不能跟你說話，他們會閉嘴不跟你說話。如果他們不跟你說話，那他們在跟誰說話呢？這才是你該擔心的。

It could set a precedent that could last the the rest of your child's life and impact the long term relationship that they have with people I or with you as a parent. I think that it's really easy for adults to sit here and and accept and say yes, like a breakup can be completely earth shattering. But I do think that we can sometimes minimize that when it comes to teens' breakups. Right. And that's another reason why I'm saying take this seriously.

Treat it like a breakup of any friend of yours because this can be earth shattering. These kids have a lot that they're trying to juggle, and this can completely derail you if you don't have if you don't have the support or the tools to heal and move on from it. And I wanna add to that. Our teenagers nowadays, this is 2024, they're under a lot more stress than any of us ever were as kids. And we don't tend to see and understand that because we're not growing up on the same planet they they are.

And the world that they live in is different than the world we grew up in, and they are far more stressed. So imagine all the emotions that you had and then add about 16 pounds of 16 tons of more stress on top of that. So don't dismiss them. Please, adults don't dismiss them. Their feelings are real.

And when you ignore them, sometimes those feelings could snowball into other things that lead to suicide, that lead to cutting, that lead to a substance abuse, that lead to out sex in everyone. Just start naming some of the other ways they manifest. Yeah. Exactly. It needs to be taken very, very seriously, and that's one reason I'm glad we're doing this episode is because there are tools and tricks and ways that you can start to move on and heal from this and maybe even even learn from it.

And teens are just as capable of it as we are. Absolutely. So since we are you you had just mentioned it. So what I wanna talk about next, we spent a lot of time talking about why breakups happen and and the emotions that we go through. And, you know, we did that because it's important before we give you the tips and tools.

Do you understand how you arrived and where you are so that you can better handle it. Neither one of us are gonna sit here and tell any of you that, oh, here's a one, two, three step for breakups, and everything will be easy. No. It's not. It's emotional.

And anything that's emotional is hard and hurts. We get that. But so what are some of the what okay. I'm I just broke up with Johnny, and I'm 16. And Johnny was my everything.

And I I keep trying not to call him and text him, but I send him little messages here and there because I can't help it, and I really want him back. But he doesn't want me anymore. Blah blah blah. We broke up. What do I do?

This is one reason why I think that breakups can be differently challenging for teens is there is the proximity factor. A lot of teens are, you know, like I said, in the same proximity at each as each other, whether it be neighborhood, groups, school, etcetera. And so I will say that needs to be taken into consideration because my biggest tip for adults when it comes to breakups is stopping all contact. And that might be a little more challenging for teens if you have to see the person every day at school Yeah. For instance.

Yeah. So I would customize the no contact rule for teens and urge you if you are a teen who has gone through a breakup or anybody who has gone through a breakup, limit your contact as much as you possibly can with this person. For a teen, the perfect example and probably the main place to start and to focus on is your cell phone. So no texting, no looking at social media, no calls, none of it. Do limit contact or completely cut it out of your life, yeah, as much as you can.

你可能會驚訝地發現，你竟然可以如此有效地減少與這個人的互動。而這正是我們陷入無法治癒的痛苦循環的原因，因為我們不斷地給他們發短信，不停地看手機，想把事情纏住他們，去看看他們在Facebook或Snapchat上做什麼。我想說，是的，採取措施消除所有這些。我向你保證，這會有所幫助。一定會有所幫助。

I wanna add to that also a detail that I think we tend to overlook for teenagers, your friends. Because your friends maybe you have mutual friends, and maybe your friends are gonna keep bringing them up, and they still hang out with Johnny because they're still friends with Johnny. And they have every right to still be friends with Johnny, but it is okay to have that conversation with your friends. Like, please don't keep bringing them up. I'm already trying to get over him.

一定要誠實守信。如果他們是你真正的朋友，他們絕對會盡力遵守。他們可能會無意中提到一些事情，因為他們當時沒有想到，或者他們對明晚要看的比賽或其他什麼感到高興。但你可以跟朋友說，因為這是關鍵因素。我經常看到這種情況。

It's a key key element. If your friends keep bringing them around and bringing them up, how the hell are you supposed to get over him when he's always in your face? So you need to remedy that. You need to remedy that. And if you have friends who can't understand that or refuse to care about your well-being, they shouldn't be your friends.

Period. Freaking end. Okay. Period end. They shouldn't be your friends.

所以，確保你的朋友很重要，但這並不意味著你需要讓你的朋友如履薄冰。我也想補充一點。但這只意味著你需要和那些可能會提起他們，或是把他們帶到你面前的親密朋友好好談談。我們會想，我已經在嘗試了，你知道嗎，你能不能別再提起他們？如果他們真的在乎你，他們真的會的。

Is they really They must. They will. They really care about you. I would say easy to do that. Look at the people who are in your, like, immediate support network.

We all know who these people are. You know, the handful of people who we rely on day in and day out who we're there for and who are there for us, and maybe look at their interactions with your ex. And you might need to have some conversations around what will most support you Right. During this transition away from the from the relationship. And it, you know, it might mean making some decisions about what events you all go to together or even how much contact I like I was just saying, your best friend has with your ex.

或許可以暫時要求一下，你知道，在我們療傷期間，稍微改變一下，調整一下。對。因為你和前任之間能創造的空間越大，你就能越快痊癒。是的，療傷過程也會越有效。我想補充一點，確保這是一場對話，而不是一個要求。

人們的反應很強烈，我這麼說也是因為這種情況確實會發生。例如，好吧，如果你真的是我的朋友，你就別再跟約翰尼說話了。別那樣對人發火。當然。因為如果你那樣對著我，我只會說，好吧。

那我想做你的朋友。嗯。這才是我們利用支援網絡發揮其作用的時候。是的，是的。

這也是一個學習的機會，可以進行平靜的對話。我的意思是，不要給自己添亂。明白嗎？和朋友吵架，是的，絕對不是你需要的。但是，你知道，要進行對話，做出決定，甚至可能要重新向別人提出要求，就像我說的，問他們如何與這個人相處。

The adult version of this advice is exactly the same. Mhmm. Because we have some adults who are, you know, over 30 but mentally 13, and they act like it when situations arise. So instead of having a hissy fit, throw in a temper tantrum because you don't like that your friend's talking to Johnny, have a conversation. Because me I I have I personally I'm not I I have been in the middle of people breaking up, and I'm friends with with with both people.

But I'm a mature adult, so I know how to handle it. And there's just certain boundaries that I don't cross because I just know that's not healthy for anyone. But I'm a mature adult, and just because someone's my age doesn't mean that they are mentally mature. So if you're listening regardless of your age, even though we're talking primarily to and about teens, take the advice for yourself regardless of your age because it really does not change. Some of the details may change when you're a teenager, but the principles don't.

Mhmm. What other advice It's true. Thank you. It's a beautiful way to put it. What other advice would you have, for for helping people to move on?

嗯，我必須說，我真的很想再次強調社群媒體方面的問題。嗯。屏蔽，屏蔽，屏蔽。是的，我同意。

你完全沒必要刻意尋找。你完全沒必要非得讓社群媒體上彈出一些引言來提醒你。這會對你很有幫助。社群媒體本來就應該充滿樂趣，它應該成為你享受社群生活的方式。

所以，讓它變得有趣吧，別讓它成為折磨你的過程的一部分。我本來想說的是自我折磨。是的，是的。我的意思是，數位自殘確實存在，你知道的，一個完整的概念，而這可能是人們進行數位自殘的方式之一，就是不斷地讓自己暴露在痛苦的事物中。

So I say block, unfriend mutual friends who you didn't even really know that well in the first place, or maybe take it as a opportunity for a little social media cleanse. I know that that's a big step for some people. After one of my last breakups, I was actually in one of the situations where proximity added a lot of complexity to the breakup and my my ability to move on from it. And that was because we had we were from the same social network. And so we had, you know, dozens and dozens of friends in common.

And I just completely deactivated my accounts for a couple months, and I actually really liked it. And it made it a lot, lot, lot easier for me. So if you wanna, you know, consider doing that, definitely erase or block the number on your phone. Or I think something that teams might find kind of fun, if blocking and deleting the number seems too large of a step for you, change the name of your x, in your phone so that if it pops up, it'll be something to remind you about your commitment to the delay process. Good idea.

That's really good. I've done it as an adult several times, and it is really effective, and it's kinda fun. So Name your name rename your ex do not answer. Yeah. I've done that.

Mhmm. Yep. Or in, you know, if you wanna use a name, I'm saying whatever works for you. You know? And maybe even a picture as well.

我好像給我的一個前任留過一張老鼠之類的照片，因為我特別怕老鼠。所以，我的意思是，這或許挺有趣的。而且，在你心情激動、忍不住不傳簡訊、不接電話的時候，這張照片會立刻提醒你，就像我說的，你的承諾。真是個好建議。

I wanna plant a little thought seed to our audience, and I just thought about putting it this way. When we have an addiction, An addiction is a weakness, no matter what your addiction is, person, drugs, alcohol, food, whatever it is. An addiction is an area of weakness that can very easily overcome you. So if this person is an area of weakness, at least at the moment, after a while, they might not be. But at first, when we break up with someone, yeah, it's an area of weakness, especially if you were really attached to that person.

If you know it's an area of weakness, why would you play with fire and expect to not get burnt? What happens is when you start playing with fire, you get burnt and you're, owie, owie, owie, this hurts. Oh my god, this hurts so much. Of course it does. You're playing with fire.

And when we go back and forth with someone that we're trying to get over and it's difficult, we actually hurt ourselves more, cause so much emotional self harm because now you already had a wound and you just stuck a knife in it. Yeah. Because the back of your away is the best thing that you can do. I mean, life life is too short, and the healing journey, you know, does take some time. And, yes, committing to it and accepting.

我的意思是，就拿這件事來說，作為開始，開始教育自己了解這些成癮問題的真實性。是的。傾身投入其中，享受其中的樂趣，並致力於克服這種成癮，或者說，克服你和這個人之間的聯繫，克服你和這個人之間不正常的聯繫，因為在另一邊，還有太多東西在等著你。如果你能走出心碎，你就能克服生活中的許多其他事情。這也是一個自我反省的機會，思考你在未來的感情中想要什麼，思考你想要什麼，思考你的優點。然後，一旦你走到最後，把分手拋在腦後，未來將會比你想像的更加精彩。

I wanna say one last thing to the audience. If you don't get over it, you will remain under it. Mhmm. Segue into don't deny that your feelings are your feelings. Deal with them.

Because sometimes you're like, well, Johnny broke up with me, so in order to deal with our feelings and deal with the hurt, we're just like, well, I'm fine. I'm fine. I'm gonna move on, and I'm going on to a dating app, and I'm gonna go out with my friends, and I'm just gonna you're pretending, and it's gonna come crashing down. Don't do that. The pretending does not help you.

它對你的傷害更大。所以承認它，處理它，這樣你才能克服它，徹底擺脫它。因為即使做不到，你也能做到。悲傷無疑是這個過程的重要組成部分。至關重要的一部分。

你需要給自己一些空間去做這件事。真正能讓你為結束而感到悲傷的唯一方法，就是接受它已經結束，並透過不再與這個人溝通，訓練你的系統接受它已經結束的事實。是的。這是一個影響你身心的循環。是的。

It and and body. It does affect your body too. Yes. Yeah. Absolutely.

Stress does things to our bodies. Well, Janice, it's been really great talking to you. There's about 25,000 more topics, subtopics on this that we could talk about, but we try to limit limit the episode. So, tell people, how they can find you. Please go and listen to my breakup podcast.

It's called breakups, broken hearts, and moving on. It is this, huge library of resources for people who are just navigating a breakup and healing from it and then deciding what moving on means to them. What is the next chapter of your life going to look like? I've got lots of core resources that your teens will love. I've got affirmation tracks, to help people cope.

I've got an episode on almost any aspect of a breakup, and I'm I'm continuing on. And, please, I would love you to just go over to Instagram and hang out with me there, Janice Formicella. And I will put the links at the bottom of the podcast description. So, again, Janice, thank you for coming on again. This has been a very, I believe, a rich conversation.

I think any listener probably heard themselves somewhere in there. Thank you for having me. Yeah. Thank you for, letting me talk to your audience about this. I I just I know for a fact how painful this can be.

我曾經經歷過一次又一次的家庭暴力，我也知道學會如何面對分手後的痛苦是多麼令人解脫和自由。而且，一旦你學會如何應對，你的生活真的會變得如此豐富多彩，你真的有能力克服它。你真的，真的可以。我知道這看起來很讓人無力，但你很堅強，你有能力。我想，這只是一個學習的過程。

Well, thank you again for coming on. Thank you. And now for a mind shifting moment. I want you to take a moment right now for some self reflection. Examine the relationships you've been in, whether you're in one right now, whether you've broken up, or you think you're about to go into one.

Take this moment for some self reflection and do the hardest part of that, which is be honest with yourself. I promise you, if you do this, you will go into the next relationship better, or you will enhance the one you're currently in. Just think about it. Thank you for listening to mind shift power podcast. Please like, and subscribe to my YouTube channel at the mind shifter.

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