Fatima Bey: 0:04

This is MindShift Power Podcast, the number one critically acclaimed podcast where we have raw, unfiltered conversations that shape tomorrow. I'm your host, fatima Bey the MindShifter, and welcome everyone. Today we have with us Benny Vunken. He is originally from the Netherlands and he currently lives in Athens, greece. He is a stoic coach, a teacher, a writer, a speaker and, most importantly, he has overcome alcoholism. Before I talk to him, I just want to give you one little point of reference of why this episode is so important. In the US alone, about 4,000 young people under the age of 21 die each year from excessive alcohol use. According to the CDC and for those of you outside the US, cdc stands for Center for Disease Control. I don't like those numbers, but they are the facts. So how are you doing today?

Benny Voncken: 1:09

Benny, I'm doing very well. Thank you for having me on, you know, and especially on a topic like this, because it's so important, especially when you hear those numbers. They definitely need to go down.

法蒂瑪先生：1:17

是的，我完全同意。所以我想直接進入話題。你先跟我們講講你是怎麼開始酗酒的吧？

Benny Voncken: 1:44

整個文化，我想對很多人來說，這就是一切的開始，你和周圍的人融入其中，你知道，你去參加社交活動，這就是常態，對，這是你應該做的正常事情。當我小的時候，我們，我們被給予，就像，你喝這個，喝那個，和它在一起很有趣，尤其是當你年輕的時候，你不知道自己的極限，你會覺得，哦，看看我，我想要融入，我想要向人們展示我的才能，或者我想要成為派對上的笑柄，你知道，派對的中心。所以我很小的時候就是這樣開始的。然後，隨著你長大，你知道，我和三個姐妹一起長大，我身邊有很多女性，這很棒。

Benny Voncken: 2:28

But then I went to college and then I got into this, you know, band of men, and I felt like I had to belong, but I didn't really know exactly how to behave among the group of men and so I figured like, oh, this is what everybody does to fit in.

Benny Voncken: 2:39

So I just went and drank even more excessively, just especially looking back after it. When you kind of you know, after I quit drinking and you see your own behavior and you look back, it's like I wasn't. This wasn't me, I wasn't myself there, I was just trying to fit in and then excessively go over the top to make sure that everybody liked me and that I was accepted in the group and I felt like that was needed. So that's where it went, really like into the the extreme sides. And then when you deal with difficulties in life, um, then you tend to go overboard as well, just to kind of make up for for pain or hurt or things that you should be dealing with. And alcohol is is an easy cover tool to to make sure that the pain and the hurt isn't felt as bad as you would do normally.

法蒂瑪先生：3:31

How long did it take you to recognize that you were an alcoholic, that it was a problem?

Benny Voncken: 3:36

I think it was something that I've known for a longer time, that it wasn't something that was good for me, but just because you have so many other things to to to cover those thoughts and just to kind of push that away, that is a that makes it different. It is a process, but at one point, when you go to a specific depth of the problem, then you don't think about any of that stuff at all. But once you like, see, I remember the moment when I really said like okay, this has got to stop, as just a day, like I was going through a divorce. And then you, you know, after a night out, I woke up and especially when you get older, the physical ramifications of you know, drinking they get worse. So you get, you wake up worse. And I looked in the mirror and at one point I saw myself my.

班尼馮肯：4:21

I was in Dubai at the moment. I was staying in a hotel room because we didn't really know where to live yet. And when she moved out, I was there by myself and the room was a mess and I was looking at myself like this is not going to be my life. This has got to be over. So that's when I made that real final decision that I can't have this in my life. But it was. Yeah. You don't really think about it too much, but as you grow you know it's somewhere in your mind. But as you move towards your experiences you will find that moment. At one point you just hit that wall and say this is it?

Fatima Bey: 4:56

You can't take anymore.

班尼馮肯：4:58

What did alcoholism look like for you? That's a really good question because it has a lot of different. You know, a lot of the times when we think think about alcoholism, we think about people who are drinking non-stop, which is definitely there, and I don't think I've reached that extreme level for me. I I didn't really like to drink a lot because it had a very big physical and you know impact on me, especially because I had migraines when I was younger so I would get very bad headaches. Um, so I didn't drink alone when I was by myself, but when I used to go out I just drank like blackout drunk and didn't know what would happen and get there, and especially in my college days that would be pretty much every day. So that would be like you know, then I was, but when I was home, like I didn't really that's where I also had I. I also was a little bit more lucky and easier to stop drinking.

Benny Voncken: 5:48

But there's so many people who have this problem with alcohol but because it's not even socially accepted, it's socially demanded of you to drink alcohol I find it very difficult to go out and not drink because people will look at you funny or they ask you like hey, hey, why aren't you drinking?

班尼馮肯：6:05

Or people even from my family saying, oh, you're not funny anymore or, you know, you're not fun to hang out with anymore and that will make you feel like an outcast faster and someone who is a people pleaser, as I am, I always wanted to do what I thought people wanted me to do, to kind of fit in.

班尼馮肯：6:20

So that's where it's a little bit more difficult to stop drinking, and that's something that we should recognize as well. It's a slippery slope, so I think I was lucky to get to stop at a certain point, because it could have gotten a lot worse. But I was definitely on the alcoholistic, heavy drinker, social drinker side, and that's where I think, especially when you are younger and even with adults, I see that around me a lot of times people say I wish I could stop drinking and I was like so why can't you? It's because I think I have to, because of all, the people around me are drinking and if I don't, then I'm not going to fit in anymore, and that's something that people in general don't want to hear. You know that you don't fit in anymore.

Fatima Bey: 7:07

That's true. I think it's very interesting the fact that you point out that you know that image of you have to be fall down drunk every day and sitting in your bathtub drowning in alcohol, and that's the only way. You're an alcoholic. Anything short of that. You're just having fun. And it's simply not true, because what you just described is a different version. And that's why I asked that question, because I think sometimes people have that image and I know it's not true that you know there are other ways to recognize it. So what do you think are some of the ways that someone can recognize that it's a problem for them.

Benny Voncken: 7:51

First of all, if you don't have your limits. That was one of my problems, and I remember Matthew Perry, the guy who was Chandler on Friends. He had a big problem with alcohol and drugs and he said my limit is zero or one. When I hit one, that opens the floodgates to so many more. So that's the same for me. When I start drinking and I just go like it's 20, 30, 40, 50, I don't stop until I fall asleep or whatever happens. And it's so risky especially. You know, I've dodged so many bullets when I was younger, so now that's also another thing, like I've tested my luck and I'm happy, and I'm lucky that I'm still here and safe. So, but there's a lot of other kind of telltale signs for me that show you that this isn't something that is good for you.

班尼馮肯：8:43

For me, it caused me a lot of anxiety, especially like before or after, like going out, and the problem is that alcohol masks your problems in the moment but it makes them far bigger after, and that's why you've got to keep drinking, because once you stop drinking, and especially when you have blackouts, like I used to have, like I would wake up in the morning like obviously feeling hungover and sick, but I would also feel depressed about not knowing what I'd done, worried, you know, not wanting to speak to people, really retreating into myself, and that just makes that spiral of negative thoughts go even even deeper.

班尼馮肯：9:22

So if you recognize those things, then this is not something that you want to keep doing. You want to definitely seek out, reach out and find support, because it just goes downhill from there and then you've got to keep going and you've got to find that you know that new boost of like oh look, I'm doing okay and I want to show that to people that I'm doing okay. And that's where alcohol helps as well, to overcome those negative thoughts in the moment and to be cheerful again. But once you stop it just brings you down further.

Fatima Bey: 9:55

So what I hear from what you're saying is one of the ways to tell it's a problem for you is if you can't just stop at one. Oh yeah, a person who starts drinking. If one opens the floodgates for 42 or whatever the number is I mean, it's not usually 42, but you know what I mean open the floodgates for another five or six. That is an illustration. That is an example. That is evidence that it's a problem.

Benny Voncken: 10:21

是的，如果你沒有那種說「不」和「停」的能力。有個故事挺有趣的，我記得有一天去參加一個派對，走到吧台的時候，我告訴自己，好吧，我先喝杯可樂，再喝點汽水什麼的，對吧。我一遍又一遍地告訴自己，我先喝杯可樂，再喝杯可口可樂什麼的，對吧。然後我走到吧台的時候，就說，好吧，給我來一杯啤酒。我當時就想，你知道的。

班尼馮肯：10:51

So it becomes this automatic pattern that you have when you're in a certain situation, when you feel like you have to drink, and then you don't have a way of stopping. And even further, whenever someone told me that I had enough and I shouldn't drink anymore, I would get angry and I would drink even more, I would just like ramp it up. It was okay, you telling me I can't drink, I'm gonna drink even more. So that's another of those signs when you can kind of get aggressive or you get defensive, when people call you out on it. Those are also signs to say maybe this isn't you know, maybe this has more control over me than I want it to have.

Fatima Bey: 11:26

I love that you're able to give detailed signs, because a lot of times we talk about it as an idea or concept but don't recognize things you know, because it doesn't always look the same for everybody, you know. And I also like the fact that you pointed out that it masks your issues. Your issues are still going to be there when you're sober. They're just worse now and the anxiety once the alcohol has left your body and the anxiety is increased. That's another sign of a problem. Those are good details to know. Now I want you to tell the audience how did you climb out of alcoholism?

Benny Voncken: 12:11

Yeah, and that's a very important part, obviously, and it also kind of has a little bit to do with one of those signs. As I mentioned earlier, I'm kind of like a people pleaser and the opinions of others are very important and I wanted to belong, and I think, as a human being, we all want to belong in a group. We want to be part of it, and so if you find yourself drinking because of peer pressure or because you feel like this is where I need to belong, if I want to stay with these people, then I need to drink. First of all, you've got to ask yourself if this is a group of people that you really want to hang out with. I think that that's something that I've had to ask myself and, funnily, when.

Benny Voncken: 12:49

我做了決定，也有一些好榜樣。我覺得這真的很有幫助。我的姊姊和表妹戒酒了。她們讓我明白，這是可能的，你仍然可以被別人接受。所以，身邊有一個好的榜樣非常重要，而且很棒的是，如果你踏出這一步，你就能成為周圍其他人的好榜樣，我也注意到了這一點。我有幾個好朋友說，等等，這可能對我來說也不好。所以，這是這樣做的另一個好處。

Benny Voncken: 13:19

So for me, one of the biggest things to really stop drinking was to stop caring about what other people thought about me and to really imagine and this is kind of like where my philosophy of life really helped me to say I can't control what other people think of me. I can stop drinking, I can keep drinking, I can do whatever I want. They will have their opinion about me anyway. But if I start to live the way I want to live, then I might attract the right people who are actually beneficial to me and I can be beneficial to them. So for me, that was the biggest part to stop thinking too much about the fear of not being part of a group and I figured, like if I need to drink to be part of that group, then I don't want to be part of that group because it just it was tearing me apart and it was really, you know, doing some bad things to me as an individual.

Benny Voncken: 14:11

So that is, for me, one of those, the biggest moments, because it's so, there's so much social pressure with alcohol and that just keeps that makes people do a lot of dumb things, which is which I did as well. So for me, that's one of those things. If you feel like you are doing this because you want to belong, then you've really got to ask yourself this is you know, whether this is something that you want to be doing in in connection with all the other stuff that we talked about? Right, if you, if you can't do it in moderation in connection with all the other stuff that we talked about, right, if you can't do it in moderation, if you can't say no on the nights, or if it causes you a lot of anxiety or mental issues?

法蒂瑪先生：14:48

then, yeah, you definitely want to look into that. So what did it look like for you getting out of alcoholism and getting sober? You talked about the decision, what led to that decision, which is great, but what did it look like for you? Did you go to a program? Did you stop drinking little by little? Did you pace yourself? Did you stop all at once? How did it work for you?

Benny Voncken: 15:14

For me. I just said I wouldn't go out for a while because I think that that's like because I kind of avoided the places where I was being triggered to drink, and it was a maybe a little bit easier because at the time I was living in dubai, um, and as I, you know, said before, that was when I was going to a breakup, but I was playing football you know, soccer as it's known in in the us but, um, that's another debate, but um, so I debate and these kind of moments where you again, that was like a setting with a lot of men and we used to drink after the games. So that was still kind of that triggering moment. But one of the things that I used was kind of like a foreshadowing technique that really helped me still is to think about what would happen if I were to take that first drink. So I would imagine me having that first drink and then kind of picturing the night evolving after that, waking up the next day, how I would feel, all of that stuff, and that usually, well usually, that stopped me from taking that first drink because I knew that if I'd crossed that barrier then the rest would follow, and I had too much experience with that, so I could easily picture what would happen when I would start.

Benny Voncken: 16:26

你知道嗎，一旦你戒酒，回首那些夜晚、夜晚、派對，以及你喝酒的那些時刻，你就會意識到，它們一開始並沒有那麼精彩。你會想，哦，這只是一個出去玩的夜晚。然後突然間，每個夜晚都會成為你生命中最美好的夜晚，對吧？哦，這將是你生命中最棒的派對。是的，明天也是如此，你知道，下週也是如此。所以一旦你意識到這一點，你就會覺得，是的，這不是我真正想要的生活，就像還有更多的東西需要擺脫，這是另一回事。一旦你停止喝酒，你會看到很多好處，這真的幫助我繼續前進。

Benny Voncken: 17:04

So for me the first thing was to make that decision and then I kind of just stopped, and first by not going to those moments, to just places that that trigger me to do it, because I wasn't strong enough to to face them. But once you get to those that to it's like okay, now I can go to where people drink, because I've fortified my mind, I'm strong enough to deal with that and I'm okay with the peer pressure and with all of that. Then you can go. But first you have to kind of protect yourself first to make sure that you're strong enough to be there.

Fatima Bey: 17:35

Yeah, I think what you said is one of the wisest things. That goes way beyond any kind of substance abuse. Where you are weak, don't go there. If you're trying to get over alcohol, don't go to a bar. Don't hang out with people that are drinking. You're trying to stop smoking weed? Stop hanging out with the potheads, as we used to call them. You know, if you're trying to stop overeating, stop hanging out with people that like to overeat all the time. Hang out with people who eat healthier. Whatever it is your surroundings really, really they influence us and they matter. It's a principle that I'm constantly teaching.

法蒂瑪先生：18:12

我聽到了，而且我從你的話中還聽到了另一件事，我從你的話中提煉出的另一件事是，你做了一個決定，然後你又做了一堆單獨的決定，一個接一個。這不是一下子吞嚥下去的「我現在好多了」。是的，我不喝酒了，我要騎獨角獸飛翔。不是那樣的。而是那樣的。你一個接一個地做了決定，你只是告訴了我們你做這些決定的方法之一。但任何你想克服的事情，都是一個接一個地做決定。再說一次，這不只是酗酒的問題。

班尼馮肯：18:46

Oh, definitely, and you need to make that decision for yourself, and that's something that a lot of people tend to forget. At least, I did that. It's again we feel like, you know, we need to show other people who we are, or whatever, but we forget that we get to live our life the way we choose to do it, and that's something that is far more powerful. So we need to make sure that we live the life that we want to live, and sometimes that means, you know, separating ourselves from certain people and finding the right groups of people that you want to be around with, and I think that that's a really good, you know, thing to pull out of it Is to make sure that you are surrounding yourself With the people who live the life that you would like to live, and find, you know, the support, find the people who are a little bit ahead of you In that, in that, in that journey, because they can give you the tips, they can give you the call you on your place and say, hey, you are messing up here again.

班尼馮肯：19:44

確保你專注於自己正在做的事情，然後允許自己也傾聽這些聲音，因為很多正在與藥物濫用作鬥爭的人，他們不善於傾聽批評或別人的斥責，他們可能會變本加厲。我以前也是這樣。所以，一旦你做出了決定，你也要能夠足夠脆弱地意識到，好吧，你知道我可能會在這裡或那裡搞砸，但至少我在盡力而為。所以，給自己一點同情心，你知道，對自己好一點，但也要足夠嚴格地說，好吧，這不是我不想退縮的地方，我想繼續前進。但是，是的，有時需要邁出一小步，有時需要邁出更大的一步。

Fatima Bey: 20:23

I think often when it comes to our youth, at least here, I can only speak for the US, because you know that's where I am, at least here in the US. If there's a teenager that is becoming an alcoholic right now as we speak, talk to them.

班尼馮肯：20:37

是的，你知道，尤其是在人生的關鍵時刻，因為在那一刻，你會做出很多影響深遠的決定。所以，如果你現在把喝酒當成掩蓋情緒問題、社會問題或其他任何問題的工具，我認為你應該意識到，外面有這麼多支持，而且支持的人很多。如果你正在處理一個問題，而其他人也已經處理過這個問題，那麼最好的解決辦法就是向其他人尋求幫助，找到你信任的知己，找到一個願意傾聽你的人，而不是去喝一瓶或一杯酒，因為你知道酒精不會聽你的。酒精只會從你身上榨取更多。

Benny Voncken: 21:27

So I think that if you are struggling in that moment, just realize that the best thing to do is just to reach out to people and to find you know the friends or family that can have your, your back and who are. You know, maybe you have someone who has already kind of gone through that process and you can reach out, or maybe someone at school, someone like a counselor or a therapist. I think that those are underappreciated tools, especially when you are younger, and I guess you know I would have liked to have had that, but for me the surroundings were all just geared towards one place, and that was you know where you would have to drink to be socially accepted. So that would be one of the biggest things that I would do is to reach out, not reach out to the bottle, but reach out to the people around you.

法蒂瑪先生：22:10

And that is so important. And again, going back to the other thing you said, you already said watch who you hang out with. Your best friend that you grew up with might not be the person you need to hang out with anymore, if that's, if they're going to keep you in a weak spot. You know you might need to hang out with new people and the family member Cause some for some people it is you might need to keep away from them, to keep away from what harms you. Um, that's a big thing too. So, benny, tell the audience what you do and how they can find you.

Benny Voncken: 22:48

So I'm a life coach and we give workshops and courses based on Stoic philosophy. That's one of the things that really helped me and I'm not, you know, we are not out there to turn people into Stoics, but we are not out there to turn people into stoics, but we are trying to inspire people to find a philosophy of life, which is something that really helped me overcome this obstacle, and what that means is to find out who you are, what are your values, your principles, what is important for you in life, how do you want to live it, what does it take to live it and you know what you mentioned as well that can help you identify the people around you that are good for you in life, or the people that you might want to say goodbye to and I've done that to many people on this journey as well, because they just didn't have my best interest, but they were just looking after their own interest and even in trying to deal with their own stuff in their way and just trying to get people to normalize their behavior by having them do the same. So that's kind of what we are trying to do to inspire people to find their own philosophy of life. So anyone's listening, go, find and look for something whether it's Stoicism, buddhism, read, learn, get knowledge.

Benny Voncken: 23:55

I think that that's something that really helped me to overcome it and life has become so much better. And people can find me on a website called via stoicacom or on our youtube channel the podcast also via stoica and we have an instagram where we try to inspire people and we have a weekly podcast and we do do life coaching. So if people want to have like a, they can book a free consultation with us just to have a chat and see, you know, for 30 minutes and see what we can do. But that's how we try to help and how I try to use my own experience. Again, once you get to this journey, once you make that decision, you can become such a powerful example for the people around you and you can change lives without even knowing it, and that, for me, is an extra boost to keep doing what I'm doing.

Fatima Bey: 24:45

All right, and his information will be in the show notes or the podcast episode description. And, benny, once again, thank you for coming on and sharing with us your personal story, and I'm hoping that this episode plants a seed of help for somebody. Thank you, and now for a mind shifting moment. Today we talked about alcohol abuse, but I want to point something out to you. The word abuse is actually a compound word. It means abnormal use. Alcohol by itself isn't the real problem. It's not even bad. It's the abnormal use of it that's bad. But here's the question I want you to think about.

Fatima Bey: 25:36

Today. You may have sit back and listened to this because you're like well, I'm not on drugs, I don't do alcohol like that, so you know this isn't about me. But I want you to ponder this Do you have something you're trying to pacify with something else besides alcohol? Are you pacifying the hurt and pain with multiple sex partners? Are you pacifying the hurt and pain with multiple sex partners? Are you pacifying the hurt and pain with more money? Are you pacifying your issues with something or someone else? Alcohol isn't the only thing that gets abused. I want you to think about that. You've been listening to MindShift Power Podcast.  For complete show notes on this episode, and to join our global movement, find us at FatimaBey.com. Until next time, always remember…

There’s POWER in shifting your thinking!