歡迎收聽《思維轉換力量》播客，這是一個面向青少年及其相關成年人的節目，我們將在這裡進行坦誠而真誠的對話。我是主持人法蒂瑪貝，思維轉換專家。歡迎大家收聽。在今天的節目中，我們將探討如何識別和應對自閉症譜系障礙患者。我們今天的特別來賓是謝麗爾·潘克赫斯特。

She's a special edition, I'm sorry, special education special. She's been doing this for over twenty five years, and she's out of Toronto, Canada. She's also a fellow podcaster. She has a podcast called Teen Minds Redefined. So she also has a podcast for teens.

And in addition to Cheryl, we also have Janiyah, a 17 year old girl from Amsterdam, New York. How are you both doing? Good. I'm great. Thank you.

很好。謝謝。那就讓我了解一下吧。我喜歡開門見山。那麼，謝麗爾，跟我們講講吧。

What do you do? So right now, I'm in transition. I have just retired from, twenty five plus years in the high school field. I used to work one on one with kids and their parents and their teachers to advocate, give them a voice, create as much of an inclusive environment safe, and just educate them on how we can support our kids and how we can find the strengths and work on their strengths rather than focusing on weaknesses. And so I'm in transition now.

I've just retired and, again, starting the podcast, and the podcast will also morph into a a coaching membership for teens and parents and teachers. Nice. Yeah. So tell us a little bit more about why why did you start this this podcast now that you're retiring? You know, because I loved working in the high school system.

但我真正開始注意到的是，你知道，我受夠了太多繁文縟節、政治鬥爭和官僚主義。我注意到，當我與孩子一對一地合作，努力找出其中的困難，並幫助他們解決問題時，他們彼此合作，而不是強加答案。然後，我會與那些在家中與團隊合作遇到困難的家長們坐下來聊聊，或是與那些不明白課堂上發生了什麼事的老師們坐下來聊聊。這就是我的強項。當我參加這些會議時，我感受到了活力。

I felt like, okay. This is what I need to do. This is where I need to to move forward and really help on a much larger scale in the podcasting arena. Awesome. That's awesome.

現在我要問你們這個問題。為什麼人們都是弱智？我的天哪。讓我也對那些會問「你到底為什麼要問這麼荒唐的問題」的聽眾說一聲。我故意用這種荒唐的方式問這個問題，因為真的有人會問這個嚴肅的問題。

This this show isn't about presentation and impressing you. It's about reality. And reality is people still think like that. And even though this younger generation is being taught, to be a little more sensitive, their parents aren't. Their parents weren't because they weren't you know, we weren't taught that.

所以人們會問這樣的問題。我個人絕對不會問這樣的問題，但我問這個問題是為了說明一個問題。但是，為什麼……為什麼似乎有越來越多的人，以某種形式患有精神殘疾？好的。所以我要談談「智障」這個詞。

Mhmm. And I'm gonna say that because let's define retarded. Retarded means stop or reverse. And so if you're talking about mentally retarded, you're talking about someone whose brain has stopped. And so I think I'm gonna say I'm gonna try to be cool here, Janaya, and say, cancel culture, that's one we're gonna cancel.

And, you know, honestly, let's let's talk about racism. Let's talk about LGBTQ plus. There's all terms that we use that we no longer use because we know better. We know now what's offensive to people. We know how that makes people feel.

So even though it's something we learned, once we know that we're offending somebody, we're done. There shouldn't even be a discussion. That's offensive to me. That says something about me that's not right, so we're not gonna say that anymore. Does that answer your question?

哦，是的。我是的。我是的。我問這個問題是因為我在尋找答案。那些真正無知的人怎麼辦？

They do not know that that word is truly offensive because that's what they grew up. I I worked with a woman because I I I teach sewing as well. And a few years ago, I had a woman that, I don't know what her mental disability was, but she lived in a home, and she had to have a worker that would bring her. And I and I it was my first time really teaching someone with a mental disability how to do some sewing. I adjusted, you know, I adjusted it to to make sure that she understood, and I just figured it out because I that's what I do with anything I teach.

但她自己會對我說，是的。我智障，因為她從小到大都被灌輸了這種思想，當時她大概四十多歲了，我想。你知道，她從小到大都被灌輸了這種想法。所以對她來說，這根本不是個冒犯性的字眼。她就是這樣的人。

所以，對於那些從小就聽著這個詞長大的人來說，這個詞只是日常用語，他們真的不知道它實際上冒犯了那些關心這個群體的人。真正感到不安的是那些關心這個群體的人，因為他們沒有把這些人看作是，你知道，那些腦子已經停止運作、毫無價值的人。嗯。你懂的？這就是人們的理解。

How do we respond to the people who actually still think that way? And, yes, I understand why it's offensive. I personally don't use the word because I do understand that. But if they don't understand that, is there a way that we can correct them without attacking them? Well, I would say, I'm sure that's your terminology from what you know.

但是，讓我給你看點東西。讓我告訴你點東西。讓我為那些可能沒有發言權為自己發聲的人發聲。嗯，就是這樣。你知道，無知的人通常要不是非常害怕，就是非常好奇。

他們根本就不知道。所以我認為，作為一個人類群體，我們應該從這裡開始倡導，繼續為那些不敢發聲的人發聲，或者讓那些聲音不夠響亮的人發出更響亮的聲音，繼續教導、教育、展示，並站出來，讓那些被那些不真實表達自我的術語所蒙蔽的人站出來。是的。現在，我想和各位聽眾分享一些我之前分享過的內容，以及之前在談話中分享過的內容。我遇到過一些自閉症譜系障礙的人，他們告訴我，他們患有亞斯伯格症。

And I don't I didn't know a lot about people in the autism spectrum. It just wasn't something I was ever I just didn't know a lot about. Not that I had an issue with anybody, but I just didn't know Mhmm. That the people that I thought were socially awkward, It wasn't just that they were socially awkward. They actually had Asperger's syndrome.

And I learned a lot because I actually sat down with a man, who's he's a part of my salsa dancing community. And he sat down, and we had a heart to heart conversation one day in my office. He just stopped by because he was nearby, and we were you know, I was sewing while we're talking. And, and he explained to me what it's like on his end. And it was the first time in my life that I had insight into what it's like to be someone who doesn't understand jokes and doesn't get, emotional social cues, doesn't understand certain emotional things.

I never knew what that was like, and I never knew that that wasn't that that's, you know, what it was like for them. And I appreciated him being open and honest with me because it allowed me to to understand a perspective I had never seen before. You know? I don't I I don't know what it I didn't know what that was like. And so I appreciated him talking to me like that.

但我想問你關於這個的問題，嗯。我覺得我並不是唯一一個有這種想法的人。我覺得有時候我們會覺得別人只是怪異或社交尷尬。哦，那人就是個怪人。他們想什麼時候模糊就什麼時候模糊。

They don't have any sense. And we because we assume that they're born with all the same stuff we're born with. And they're not. I don't know all the technical terms of of all the stuff that they're you know, you do, but I just understand that. How do we tell the difference between when someone's socially awkward because they are just weird, or maybe they're on the spectrum.

I said it that way on purpose because that's words people use. So I would say if someone is socially awkward, I think we could even just say shy. They don't feel worthy to be in the company they're in. They might just have difficulty making eye contact or initiating conversation, and they may eventually warm up in in a comfortable zone. Can it also I'm sorry.

Can it also be, like, anxiety too? Exactly. Social anxiety can be Okay. Something it and those are the types of, characteristics of someone with social anxiety. So they might not be able to initiate a conversation.

They may not be able to have, eye contact. They, they may avoid these situations because they feel like they're not worthy to be in that situation, or their anxiety does not allow them to be in that situation. If you are someone who is on the spectrum, however, so Asperger's is actually a term they don't usually use anymore, it is still Autism Spectrum Disorder. Asperger's was what they, noted as the highest functioning of autism. Mhmm.

So you could pretty well navigate the world with Asperger's. There was just some social differences, that you would be able to pick up on. But under the umbrella of Asperger's, you would see that's that people have a very black and white communication. So on the verbal side of it, black and white communication, they do not see anything in a gray area. They would not understand anything other than something literal.

So for example, you're in the theater and you say go break a leg, they're like, oh my god. Why would I wanna go break my leg? So and it's very much like that. They don't understand sarcasm, and they don't what they nonverbally won't understand is if you're giving them a dirty look or you're shutting them out. You're crossing your arms.

You don't want them in your space. They don't understand that. So they would still move forward and you would be irritated that this person's not understanding your nonverbal cues, but they would not understand your nonverbal cues. Now I'm gonna just disclaim this. Not every person with autism has the exact same characteristics, so I'm not lumping everyone into the same category.

這些只是廣義的。很難進行眼神交流，很難理解他們眼中的正義。例如，我要去上高中，我最好的朋友有個女朋友。鮑伯有個女朋友。她女朋友叫簡，我看到簡在走廊上和另一個男孩說話。

如果我有自閉症，我會生氣。我會胡思亂想。這不公平。他們和別的男人或男孩在一起不公平，因為男女朋友都這樣，這是規則。哦。

So it's justice and sometimes they're right in their, perception of justice, but sometimes they have their own perception perception of justice, of what's fair. I know. I have one question. Be yes? Is it, like, possible, like, is it possible, like, for, like, an I don't know how to say the word.

Like, an autism person, like, a non a non autism person to, like, be, like, very close friends? Absolutely. And once you understand that's a great question because once you understand the intricacies of being on the spectrum and you're not offended by, oh, he he doesn't understand the dirty look, so I'm going to say to him, I'm angry with you right now, or you're in my personal space. Could you please back up? Two steps.

或者你現在說話太大聲了。我需要你，如果你能說出我們平常和坐在房間裡的朋友說的話，他可能正看著你的朋友，就像你媽媽一樣，在你成長的過程中，你了解你媽媽給你的那種眼神。你知道。你應該說一句話。最好閉嘴。

Right. So you think of parenting a kid with autism. Oh my god. They're not understanding any of that. So there's a frustration.

所以老師們會坐在教室的前後兩排，你會遇到自閉症學生，他們不明白老師不應該按筆或跺腳，因為老師一直盯著他們。是的，他們無法理解老師的注視。所以，你是不是有小孩的思考模式？因為，當你還是個小孩子的時候，你不知道什麼是對，什麼是錯，很多事情你都無法理解。

Not necessarily because a little kid, a a typical, kid would be able to learn those skills eventually. But someone with autism may never understand those skills. They may learn them only because they're gonna memorize them. So they might be able to, in in social groups or social education, might say, oh, my mom's smile is up, so she's happy with me right now. My own smile is down, so or my mom's mouth is down, so she's not happy with me right now.

They may not understand why, but they start to be able to memorize the triggers or the characteristics of facial expression or, oh, okay. If my mom's doing that, it means she's not happy or, you know, she's doing this, she's happy and she's so I'm I'm expressing, like, body language. Mhmm. So typically, someone with autism, although a younger child will develop those skills and learn them and understand them, someone with autism may never be able to do that. So, yes, you could be friends, and you know what?

如果你能理解，你的朋友可以和你坐在同一個房間裡，你們可以一起玩電子遊戲，或者你們可以各自做點什麼，完全不說話，那麼自閉症患者完全可以接受。哇。你可能會想，我們甚至什麼都沒說。怎麼可能呢？不過沒關係，因為沒必要說什麼。自閉症孩子對閒聊不感興趣。

Like, zero. And you would say to I would say to my students, hello, David. How was your weekend? Why? Not, oh, it was fine.

你的孩子怎麼樣？他們不在乎。真的不在乎。他們根本不喜歡閒聊。所以，如果你能理解這些，並且仍然感到自在，並且明白他們沒有冒犯你的意思，這只是他們學習、交流和處理信息的方式，是的，任何人都可以和這個自閉症孩子做朋友，絕對應該嘗試一下。

是的，是的。我知道，一旦我理解了，我就知道了。這個人向我描述了成長過程中，不理解社交暗示是什麼感覺，你知道，要費很大勁才能理解別人在溝通中的意思。你知道，我真的很欣賞他每天的努力。他真是個很棒的人。

我只是覺得他有點尷尬又怪。但這並沒有讓我感到困擾，因為如果有人尷尬又怪異，我還是會和他做朋友。我不在乎。你明白我的意思嗎？我知道人們有他們自己的問題，也有他們尷尬又怪異的理由。

So it doesn't that that doesn't faze me. So I, you know, I I never pushed him away because of that. But there's a lot of people out there that will push people away because they're weird, quote, unquote. It's I I keep saying weird because that's usually the biggest term that at least that I've heard used for people who are just different in any kind of way. Yeah.

那麼，對於那些把別人看成怪人（其實他們可能就是自閉症譜系障礙）的人，你會怎麼說呢？也許，我不知道，我覺得我們應該試著去理解別人，而不是直接把他們當成怪人。在學校裡，遇到任何有這種反應的老師或家長，我的第一個反應總是說，那是別人家的孩子。嗯。所以這是你的第一個反應。那是別人家的孩子。

那可能是你的孩子，可能是你的姊妹，也可能是，你知道的。所以退一步，保持好奇心，你可以問問題，你可以問，我的意思是，我們知道我們可以查維基百科，左顧右盼，但你可以問問題嗎？你可以問自閉症患者任何你想問的問題，只要你問的是「是」或「否」的問題，黑白分明的問題。哦，好吧。我不會問自閉症患者，你今天感覺怎麼樣？

我想問的是，你是開心還是難過？你感覺溫暖嗎？還是冷漠嗎？如果我想和我的自閉症朋友出去約會，我不會問，嘿，你週六晚上想做什麼？我會問，你想去看電影嗎？還是想去吃晚餐？

是或否。非黑即白。沒有主觀想法。說得很對。好的。

So the subjective thinking piece is is the biggest challenge for them. Yeah. And in school, it's the same thing. I mean, when you're talking to teachers who want, you know, write an essay on the best part of your summer. Oh my gosh.

That could send a kid with autism into a frenzy instead of saying, what did you do in June that you really like to do that had to do with sports? Like, just very narrow, narrow, narrow, narrow so that they don't have to go broad thinking. So you just have to black and white. So you just have to be, like, very, like, very specific towards them? %.

Exactly right. No. I I didn't I didn't know that he was I never knew that. I don't know what you know. I the other thing I wanna ask you about, I know that I've seen this, and I'm respectful of it once I know and understand it.

Many of them are really bothered. I don't even know if really bothered is the right word because it's stronger than just bothered, but, very, very, very upset with loud noises. The sensory issues are incredibly, characteristic of someone on the autism spectrum. So there could be a tag in their shirt or their sock is on funny or the lights are too bright or the noise is too loud or, they're too hot or they're too cold or they're hungry, and sometimes what they won't have is the skills to say, oh my god. Turn down the music.

No. You will see their form of communication could be very aggressive, very loud, and it doesn't connect for you. I have one question. I ain't gonna cut you off. Of course.

Is there any possible way you could speak side language with them? You absolutely could, but you would have to learn together. Oh. So 100% you could and there's many, many children born with nonverbal autism communication, so they can't speak at all. So this is where they would learn to sign.

這個問題問得真好。是的。我之前沒想過這個問題。我有個阿姨，她聽不見，我媽媽懂手語，她教手語。

And sign language is more complex than people realize. And I under I I'm saying that because I understand your response and that you'd have to learn with them, because people think that sign language is just one language and it's not. A person a a person in The US speaking sign language and a person in Mexico speaking sign language may not be able to talk to each other. Exactly. Because the languages are made up in each country that they're in.

So because it's a it's a physical language, you know. It's not, it's not verbal like we're used to, or or audible. So I that to me makes a lot of sense. So when the students first yeah. And it was a good question.

And when students first start to learn when they come into high school and they are nonverbal, a very effective way of communicating is pictures. So we would have our we I have multiple students in my high school that would never be able to speak. So we would have pictures of a toilet, pictures of a hamburger, pictures of a clock, pictures of a sweater, and he would be able to go pull it down and we knew what he needed. So if you can imagine, I know we've all seen or probably heard of, verbally aggressive autism, or they have temper tantrums and they're throwing chairs around the room and that is very real, but that is just a way of them to communicate something they that is just troubling them, but they have no idea how. I have one question.

會非常敏感。是的。自閉症的早期症狀是什麼？通常兩歲就能診斷出來，通常會看到什麼？我不想把這個問題歸類，但很多很多孩子都會踮著腳尖走路。很多孩子真的不會穿衣服，討厭穿衣服，或是每天都穿一樣的衣服。

他們每天都會在同一時間吃同樣的東西。這是早餐，那也只是早餐，而且永遠不變。他們再次變得難以與人眼神交流。他們很難理解任何幽默、笑話，或任何對他們來說不是非黑即白的東西。我跟你說，我這個人很愛諷刺。

我非常愛諷刺。認識我的人都知道我愛開玩笑。所以，當我和一個自閉症譜系障礙的人打交道，知道他們無法理解我的意思時，我會更謹慎地對待他們。嗯。因為現在我明白了，他們不會理解我的笑話，而且他們不僅僅是因為無法理解笑話就被認為是怪人或缺乏常識。

They just don't actually get it, so I have to make sure I'm explaining that it's a joke. And most of them will laugh once they understand it's a joke, but it has to be explained. And so, on that note, what advice do you have for the teenagers that are out there right now that may have, people in the spectrum around them? And, you know, you said some ways that they can recognize it, but how do they handle, you know, people in the spectrum around them and maybe be nicer to them than some of their peers are? You know, I would say if you are noticing that they're looking uncomfortable, you could say, are you hot?

Are you cold? Are you hungry? Is this too loud? Is this too noisy? Is this too bright?

And and start asking them how they feel, what do you what do you need, but ask them what they need specifically. I would say, understand that if they're not looking at you or having a conversation with you, please don't be offended. That's just they don't that's just the way they communicate. I would say you can ask them, do you need space? Do you need contact?

Some people with autism need sensory hug, like a really strong Really? Oh, yeah. Hard hug. Others, no contact at all, but they might say, I need space, and they could walk away for three minutes, take a breath, come back, and they've been able to self regulate. And to be able to catch someone before they get to the point where they just can't communicate, if you rec start recognizing those signs, you know, that's where that's where things really come into play instead of waiting until you know, I know there's there's triggers.

我知道，如果你在教室裡，周圍很吵，你看到有人開始搖晃，或者他們可能會自慰，他們的手會這樣動，或者你可以直接告訴他們，你需要戴耳機嗎？這裡太吵了嗎？你想出去走走嗎？你知道，直接問他們需要什麼，理解他們的需求。即使他們沒有像普通青少年那樣主動伸出援手，也不冒犯他們。也許你應該試著對他們更體貼一些，這很有意義，因為在我的學校裡，也有自閉症孩子。

And when I'd be going when I'd be going to, like, like, the bathrooms or going to, to, like, the guy's office, I would just see them walking around. Like, I'll see them walking around a lot of times, and they'll say hi, and then they'll wave at me with them. They I'll wave at them back, but I just never understood, like, why they, like, walk around a lot until you told me. Mhmm. Okay.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, I I worked with one student who intimidated most of the kids in the school because he was very, very loud when he was triggered, like, very loud. So he's, like, six foot three, and he would yell, and he would swear, and he would scream, and I would just stand there and just wait till he was finished, take him to my office, and that was his safe space. He could say whatever he wanted in my office.

但在那件事發生的前一天，我問他，當你達到那個程度時，感覺如何？例如，如果你處於第一級，你超級開心，一切都正常，溫度適宜，你不餓，也不累，一切都很好。但第五級是無法控制的憤怒。那感覺如何？他形容我永遠不會忘記。

He described this to me. He said, it's like a wall of fire right in front of my face, like a blazing wall of fire, and I thought, wow. So they use similes? That's how that's how he described it to me. And, again, not everybody's the same, but that's just how he like, my five is a and so imagine yourself in a room that's on fire.

What are you doing? You're yelling. You're screaming. You're escaping. Yeah.

Right? Yeah. Wow. Well, it it has been really, really, really good talking to you, Cheryl. But before we go, could you tell us a little bit more about what people can expect with your new podcast and, where they can go to hear it?

Absolutely. It's going to be on any podcast, Irina. So Apple or Spotify. My website is CherylPankers.com. And what I'm gonna be doing is typically, it'll be a solo podcast for most of the part where I just pick a topic, and I'm just gonna riff on it.

就像我們今天做的那樣，隨便選一個就行了。希望那些坐在那裡想著「哦，我完全不知道」的人能明白。今晚真是太棒了，希望我不僅能和家長們交流。還有青少年們，還有家長們，還有愛他們的人，還有坐在教室裡想著「我不知道這代表什麼，我不知道該怎麼辦」的老師。

我想創造一個我們共同努力的社區。我希望青少年、老師和家長都能加入一個小組，互相交流，說：「嘿，Janiyah，今天發生了什麼事，我們本可以做得更好嗎？」Janiyah 可以幫我們，互相幫助，共同創建一個互相支持的社區。那麼，自閉症青少年也能成為觀眾的一部分嗎？當然可以。

隨著播客的推進，我希望把它變成會員制。這樣我們就可以每月或每週開會，聊聊這週在學校的情況，聊聊我們能提供哪些幫助，聊聊我們能如何合作，聊聊我們該如何真正傾聽青少年的心聲，並理解他們就像搖滾明星一樣。抱歉，你們就是搖滾明星。是啊。我覺得這太棒了。

I love the the concept, and it's definitely especially niched, you know, idea. But I think that that's good because we have too many broad general useless conversations all over the place all the time right now. I'm really grateful for your for your topics here and who you're who you're working to support. I think this is really, really helpful. There's not too many people out there.

It's people talking down and telling teenagers how, and this is the way life goes. And, no, that's not what it is. That's not what it is. There's You know what I'm saying? Yeah.

I mean, not not just teenagers, but none of us. If somebody's talking down to you or at you or you listening, hell no. You just you still in the room, but you left a while ago because you're on a beach in Maui. Not so. Oh, no.

他們剛剛著火了。你現在在某個地方的海灘上。你明白我的意思嗎？總而言之，和你聊天真是太棒了，我很高興支持你即將推出的新播客，我希望我所有的聽眾都能去那裡，看看你能學到什麼。謝謝你。

I'm right back up. That I think that people will learn a lot from you if they just listen. I mean, in the conversation we had off air, I learned a whole bunch of stuff. So, I'm I'm hoping that that that does I genuinely hope that does well for you. And thank you, Jania, again, for coming on and being the that voice of the team, and you could just ask the questions that we would welcome.

Yes. Thank you. Thank you both. This was just so fun, and I learned a lot too. Yeah.

I learned a lot. I'm glad. That's what this is about. Yeah. And now for a mind shifting moment.

I hope you were really listening today. I will tell you, speaking with Cheryl on and off the air, I learned a lot. I learned some things that I will take with me. I think it's important that we take the time to at least try to understand others who are different than us. Try to understand other people's struggles.

You might approach them differently. Try to think outside of yourself. That's what I want you to take away from this. This is about more than just people in the autism spectrum. It's also about seeing pea learning other people, seeing people who are different than you and trying to understand them.

My hopes are that in today's session, you are able to hear that and that you're able to try to get to know people who are different than you. It will enhance your life. If you let it. Thank you for listening to mind shift power podcast, Please like and subscribe to my YouTube channel at the mind shifter. If you have any comments, topic suggestions, or would like to be a guest on the show, please visit FatimaBay.com/podcast.

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