Welcome to Mindshift Power podcast, a show for teenagers and the adults who work with them, where we have raw and honest conversations. I'm your host, Fatima Bey, the mind shifter. And welcome everyone. On today's episode, we have James Divine from Colorado. He is a speaker and middle school teacher, a musician, and a podcaster.

He also has 10 grandkids. But today, we're gonna talk about something very serious, and, I'm gonna just dive right into it. So, James, can you tell us some major things that happened to you as a kid? Yeah. So I was the victim of a dad who was abusive to my mom, And my mom was from Italy, so the good thing was we left it we left New York where I I was born in, up until the age five, and we moved to Italy to be with my mom's family to escape from my dad.

Now he never had abused me, but I saw that what he had done to my mom almost on a daily basis, it feels like, as a as a kid. And we moved to Italy, and life was mostly good there. So I don't want it sound like it was bad. I've enjoyed being with my relatives. We were dirt poor, but I didn't know it because I had plenty of meatballs to eat every day with my Italian relatives.

But we were part of a, American community there. There there's a navy base over there in, Naples, Italy. And so we knew some of the people who, were there, and I ended up being raped by a friend of the family who I really looked up to. And that abuse continued on for several years of my life from about age five or six to about age eight. Now that's a big can of worms, but let's let's talk about it.

You're a man. Right? And as a boy, I think, you know, sexual abuse is something that that is far more prevalent than it should be, but, also, I think it's different for boys than girls. And that's just what I see as an observer. That's not what I've experienced because I'm not a man.

So can you tell us how it affected you? So it's very complex, and anyone who's been through it will probably have a similar story, but everyone's story is a little bit different. So I had looked up to this man, his name was George. I looked up to him as like a father. And so when the abuse happened, the first time it happened, especially, there's a lot of confusion that comes about with that.

就像，我愛這個男人，他就像我的父親一樣。他為什麼要這樣對我？因為這通常不會立即發生。我的意思是，有時我們會在新聞裡聽到有人去廁所之類的，但這種事很少發生在陌生人身上，而且是發生在你不認識的人身上。通常發生在你認識的人身上。

And so I loved George. I looked up to him. I enjoyed spending time with him. He paid attention to me. And when he finished his terrible act, he apologized, and he said he was sorry.

He said it would never happen again, and my five year old, six year old self believed him. The next time it happened, I believed him. The next time it happened, I believed him. All through ages five through eight, I believed him every time he said, this is the final time. I'm a sick man.

This will never happen again. The abuse stopped when I was eight because he moved away. And you would think that would be when the healing would begin, but what happened is then as I became a teenager and a preteen, 11, 12 years old, and I began to understand what it was that he had done to me. The shame built up. I I don't know why this happens, but when I've talked to other, victims, they've experienced the same thing where they feel like they did something wrong even though as a child, you don't have the wherewithal to know what to do a lot of times.

And so the shame that came about with that as I began to understand exactly what he was, what it was that he did, I began to hate him. And this hate just grew like a cancer. It just ended up, really growing. And in in fact so George was the only time who was the only one who violated me in such an intimate way like this, but I had three or four other men who touched me inappropriately, and they probably would have gone down the same path, but I was a little bit more sly maybe. I don't know.

我想逃避。但我記得我當時腦子裡很亂，一直在想，為什麼男人會被我吸引？這是否意味著我是同性戀？事實並非如此。但因為我把這些都壓抑在心裡，才讓我的大腦和精神充滿了困惑、羞恥和虛假的罪惡感。

And so it was really a turmoil experience. Now I I I was fortunate because I had a lot of good things happening in my life. I had a lot of men who were positive influences in my life. I had a mom who, although she wasn't perfect, she loved me, and she would do anything to protect us as kids and to and to give us the things we needed. I was I was never wanting for food or love for my mom or a place to live, but this turmoil was still within my spirit and mind and soul.

首先，關於成長，我知道你以前聽說過這件事，但我真的很遺憾你必須經歷那樣的痛苦。我也為所有其他經歷過這種事卻不願談論的年輕人感到遺憾。你能不能再多講講這件事對你生活的影響，更具體一點？我之所以問這個問題，是因為我知道現在有很多年輕人和成年男性經歷過這種事，他們或許能理解你所說的一些細節，並且知道並非只有他們才有這種經歷。所以，現在回想起來，我57歲了。

當我回顧人生中的這段時光，以及我尋求寬恕的過程時，我覺得對我傷害最大的可能是我的自尊。我一生都在與自尊心奮戰，以前的自尊心在1到10的量表中，大概是10分。即使我現在已經57歲了，擁有了成功的人生，我仍然在掙扎，但現在我的自尊心大概是1分。當時，一切都圍繞著自尊，總覺得有些事你做不到。事實上，我覺得我們有著非常相似的使命，因為我的人生目標之一就是幫助青少年擺脫「我做不到」的心態，並認識到他們可以做到。

他們可以做自己想做的事情，但有時是我們的大腦阻止了我們去做這些事。所以這可能是它對我影響最大的一個面向。但當我回首往事，審視自己的人生時，我能看到自己身上那些小小的虛偽。其中之一就是對權威的恐懼。我知道這不僅是因為那個虐待我的男人，也是因為我的父親。

And so up until a couple of years ago, if the principal called me into the office as I'm a retired teacher and still teaching half time now, If the principal called me into the office, 90% of the time, it was for something positive or to ask me a question or to say, hey. We're gonna increase your budget, or can you explain this this expense you're asking for? It was something neutral or good. But my thought was always, oh, I'm being fired, I must be in trouble. And so that stems from that, and it's something I've had to wrestle with my entire life.

Now I do want to give hope to people. I just I wanna say that I am 98% healed and 98% on the journey, to that. Well, I I liken it to being a 1,000 mile journey, and that at the age of 16 is when I decided to forgive this man, and that was the first step, the first mile of that 1,000 mile journey of healing, and it was hard to see the end. Now on mile 997, I can I can't see where it started anymore, but I know I can see the end now, and I can see all the progress that I've made through those those years towards this end of the journey? How old were you when you first came out and and talked about it?

Who did you talk to? So I kept all of this bottled up inside, and I really regret that. But when you're a kid, you don't know. And the shame Mhmm. Is false shame because I didn't do anything as a kid.

This man was the one who is guilty of of all of this. The my my faith in Christ helped me to realize that I needed to forgive this guy. And Mhmm. At the age of 16, when I decided to forgive him, that's also when I told my mom and my sister. And that was the first people I had ever told.

And I don't think I told anybody else until my wife and I had dated for two and a half years before we got married. And I think maybe about a year into our dating, she was the third person that I told about what had happened to me. Oh, wow. And what sort of a reaction did you get? How did it feel when you finally started talking about it?

It felt good on my part to get that to get that off my my chest, so to speak, because I think sometimes when things are hidden, they're actually more painful. But there was also some pain that came with that, and I had to forgive my mom later for this. So first of all, my mom was in denial, and it and I understand it now as a 57 year old man, but as a 16 year old, this was painful because my mom was like, no. That couldn't have happened. You would be dead if that happened.

我說，嗯，媽媽，我不在這裡。我沒有死。她讓她意識到，這是真的。後來她和那個男人的妻子成了朋友，那個男人的妻子當時已經是前妻了，但我媽媽仍然和她保持朋友關係。我媽媽一直都是那種喜歡掌控一切，盡力自己處理好的人。

於是她馬上聯絡了她的朋友，說：「嘿，我需要他的聯絡方式，因為我要跟他好好說說心裡話。」她朋友說：「不行。我不想給你他的聯絡方式，因為他當時已經從海軍退役了。」她朋友有身分證，有福利，或許還有贍養費，但她就是不想給我任何媽媽。我後來不得不回去原諒我媽，因為我媽媽當時就放棄了。

And I wish she would have taken it further and gone to the police and gone Yeah. And tried to prosecute him. But because it was her friend and and her friend said, no, I'm not gonna and then she remained friends with that person for a long time. And I I would think if I were trying to resolve this with my own kids or grandkids and my friend who had info that could help wouldn't give it up. That would be the end of our friendship.

But my mom stayed friends with this person. Okay. What I'm hearing from your story one of the things I'm hearing from your story is that talking about it helped. It stirred the pot. It caused some disruption.

You know? It was uncomfortable. That 100 of the time goes with the territory, and that's what people, I think, sometimes don't understand. It it you still should have done it. I wish you had done it sooner too, but I understand why you didn't.

而且我認為你的觀點非常正確，當我們不談論那些需要談論的事情時，它們實際上會侵蝕我們自己，而不是它們應該侵蝕的對象。它們傷害我們，沒錯，不是他們。談論這件事本身就很困難。我可以想像，身為一個男人談論這件事會更加困難。

I think because our society a lot of what you're saying, I've I've heard from female victims a lot. We blame themselves. As females, we blame ourselves all the time too. But females in our society have traditionally had a different expectation of emotionality than men. And, people can be more cruel when it comes to men.

At least, I that's what I see, especially when it comes to this subject. And especially since you're talking about so long long time ago, today might be a little bit different than it was when you're a kid, but I don't really think it's that much different, honestly. I don't think we've come that far. And that's why I think it's so important to talk about this from a man who's been through it, you know, for other young men who may be going through it now or maybe have gone through it and they haven't talked about it. So talking about it is obviously very important.

I would like you to talk to the young men in the audience and the grown men who are as old as you, they went through it too, and they have never uttered a word. Please just talk to them. So I'll start with the with the young men. And for the young men, I want them to know that they're not alone in this. Even if everybody around them is silent, even if they finally come out with their story and it doesn't feel like anybody else does.

在我的研究中，我無法為你列舉具體的事情，但我讀過很多這方面的資料，也讀過很多經歷過類似事情的人的故事和傳記。所以統計數據顯示，至少有十分之一的男孩會經歷類似的事情，甚至更多。這算是最低的機率，十分之一的男孩。我認為四分之一的女孩也經歷過非常類似的事情。這已經成為一個大問題，雖然這在世界上並不新鮮，但在很長一段時間裡一直是個秘密。

And as you had mentioned, it's usually easier for girls to come out and share their their story for some reason. Because I think for boys, it's something where they're going to just feel the pain. Like, they feel like it's going to take away from their manhood or something to share what has happened to them. And what you have to realize that I went through different phases of this. So when my own boy, I have a girl and three boys for my four grown kids who are all grown now.

But when my boy, turned five years old, my oldest boy, I was looking at this five year old kid and I was thinking, how could someone have done this to a little he he was a little kid. You know, he's not it it made me realize what it what it was that it it was a kid that was abused. And I was able to put myself kinda in his place and realize that that's who I had been. And even though the pain was a little bit less, when my oldest grandson turned five, I was kind of thinking the same thing. It's like, this is a little boy.

他是個無辜的男孩。如果那樣的事發生在他身上，他肯定不知道該怎麼辦。我們有時會想，我們可以等等。很多時候，年輕人會為發生的事情自責，他們會想，我為什麼不自衛？我為什麼不揍他？我們都可以事後再想想這些事情。

我為什麼不告訴別人？我為什麼不逃跑？這些事情很難解釋，當有人引誘你時，你最終會受到情感上的束縛。因為這些人心懷惡意。所以他們用好意試圖在情感上束縛你，這讓他們得以繼續對你做那些壞事。

Now to the older men, if someone's my age or older, and they've never told anybody, it's time brother, it's time to tell someone what you've experienced and what you've been through, because it's not too late to start your healing journey. Sometimes guys think it's too late. I had a relative who went to jail for some stupid things he did, and he wasn't in jail for very long, but he had like wrecked an apartment. He had always been drinking. And when he was 45, he came out of jail and he was living with his mom.

And he said to me something like, James, you know, my my I wasted my life. It's my life's over. I'm 45 and I'm living in my mom's basement. And I remember telling him, you know, it's not too late. It's not too late to move forward from all the dumb mistakes and dumb things you did.

你知道，在那之後，他本來可以再活三、四十年，過著上帝呼召他過的充實生活。但現在他選擇了一條不同的路，而且我認為他還沒有真正從中走出來。但即使現在，也不算太晚。他現在可能快60歲了，但即使現在，對他來說，去嘗試一些事情也不算太晚。踏出這一步，走出我們曾經的處境，永遠不會太晚。

Now on something that I'd like to share also is that my mom was against counseling. I don't know where she got that idea, why it was a bad thing, but I wish she would have gotten me into counseling right away as soon as she as soon as I had told her what had happened. And I think that would have that would have exponentially moved my healing journey quicker through through what I what I had experienced. I ended up seeking it on my own a little bit later in life. The but that I could have benefited a lot more from it at a much younger age.

所以我聽到你說的是，它基本上影響了你的生活。有時我們並沒有意識到，我們內心有多少未解決的問題正在影響我們當下的生活。它影響著我們的思維，影響我們的決定，進而影響我們的行為。所以，當我們有我稱之為未解決的問題時，性騷擾，100% 的情況下，都會留下未解決的問題。

它確實會造成100%的傷害。如果你不處理它，它肯定會越來越嚴重。所以我聽說它確實會造成傷害，但我想讓觀眾充分理解的是，你實際上已經恢復了99%。你是如何從零到99%的？這是一個過程。

So that first step of it was deciding that I was going to forgive the the guy for what he had done to me. Telling other people was another step in the process. Then throughout my twenties, instead of, because I still had this mindset from my mom that counseling was bad. So throughout my twenties, I didn't seek the the counseling that I that I should have. But all throughout my twenties, that's when I read all kinds of biographies of people who had been through abuse.

And sometimes it was similar to what I had been through. Sometimes it was a different kind of abuse, but their their stories of overcoming and their journey contributed to my mindset to help me, through that. Then for me, and I think everybody's journey is going to be a little bit personal and different Right. For me. So I I I share my story in front of groups of three to 3,000.

確實如此，但這並不適用於所有人。這並不意味著每個人都適合。我30歲就開始這樣做了，在從事教學之前，我在90年代做過公眾演講。我家的一個朋友也從事這個行業，他是一名諮商師。我有機會和他分享我的故事，他為我的生活提供了一些建議，並幫助我解決了一些心態問題。

But he started he had heard me do some public speaking, and he's like, you're really missing out by not sharing your story. And I remembered almost like fighting with him over. It's like, I can't share this as as part of my speeches, what I've what I've been through, but he kept encouraging me. And the first time I I did, I thought I was gonna choke. But then I saw what an impact it had, And I saw the stream of people that would line up to talk to me afterwards to share their own story and talk about how that, that, that journey for some of them, that for some of them, I was the first one they had told and I encourage them get some counseling, get with another person, share this some more in deep because Mhmm.

In-depth because we only have this five minutes together or a couple of minutes together. But there were a lot of men who oftentimes there would be one or two men who would kind of hang back until everybody was gone and they wanted to be the last one. But that shame, they they had so much shame, but they were brave at the same time because they're coming up to talk to me. But that shame of, I don't want anybody else to know, but I feel okay that James is going to to know this. So that was an important part.

And then for me also, I wrote wrote this in a in a book, and I feel like the the book was more important for me to write than almost as much as it is for people to to read it. But that so I think that could be for everybody to actually write their story down even if all they do is burn it later or share it with their closest family members. It doesn't necessarily have to go in in a book. Mhmm. So those were some and then counseling, I eventually sought counseling, but I had done a lot of the work already, myself.

但我明白，如果我早二十年接受心理諮詢，或許能讓我更快渡過難關。我覺得你說得一點沒錯。我覺得你分析得挺透徹的。如果你早點接受心理諮詢，你就能更快、更好地渡過難關。我知道，在某些文化中，接受心理諮商仍然是一種很嚴重的恥辱，義大利人就是其中之一。

When you said I don't my mother thought that the counseling was bad. I'm like, yeah. Because she was Italian. I could say that about, you know, you know, you said about, Greeks. You can say it about a lot of other a lot of other cultures.

It's not just Italians. But, a lot of people in the world still have that that stigma, and I think it's especially harder as a male because there's even more stigmas around it, just just from that perspective. So, yeah, being able to get the right counseling from somebody who's gonna still keep your manhood intact while counseling you, I think that that's critical. Because sometimes people are like, I'll counsel you and turn you into a girl. But no no, ma'am.

You know, guys don't wanna hear that. They they still wanna keep their manhood intact as as they should, and there's nothing wrong with them feeling that way. So I think it's important of your approach. As people who are therapists and and counselors of any kind, that when we approach males on the subject, we have to keep that in mind, allow you to keep your man your manhood intact, you know, your masculinity intact while while approaching the subject. And I think I think there's a lot of people that don't get that.

You know, I can I'm not a man, but I do understand that. For and and I know that people have all kinds of different faith beliefs, but, I'm a strong Christian. And I look at Jesus Christ, and, a lot of people see that gentle side of him, which he was that, and that's what what men can be also. But he also had the times, like, when he flipped over the tables, when he has met at people who were abusing the they were selling they were abusing their their ability to sell things to people who had traveled a long way. He flipped over the tables, and there there's a time for that.

And there it seems like Sometimes he told these Pharisees off. Yeah. Definitely. Definitely. He'd he'd he spoke his mind and was very, very strong and then was Yep.

Was gentle when he needed to be. Yes. And that is a beautiful thing to bring up because you're absolutely right. People tend to see, oh, he was just this passive little, you know, little sissy Jesus, but he really wasn't. Not if you actually read scripture.

He he told Pharisees quite a few times because they needed to be. You know, he he was he was gentle and loving too, but that's not all he was. You know? He was he was balanced because you need to be a little bit of both. Yeah.

So do you do speaking engagements, at schools right now? Yes. I love to speak to young people, junior high, high school. I haven't done elementary yet, but I would love to to speak to that group as well. And it doesn't matter what size of the group.

可能是在教室裡，也可能是一群學生。其實我更喜歡小班制授課，因為在這種情況下，人們會比在全校範圍內的大型集會上更開放一些。所以，如果大家想了解更多信息，可以聯繫我的郵箱：James Devine.net。是的。謝謝你，謝謝你今天參加節目，謝謝你如此坦誠地說出你的故事。

And I'm hoping that there are some young men and especially grown men out there who are listening that have the secret that are considering doing something about it now after hearing you. So you all heard about James' website where he can go. But, also, James has something special just for my audience, just for people who are listening to this podcast right now. What is that, James? So I've got several books that I've written, including one called Sad Boy, Joyful Man, and I it's a shortened version of my of my story, especially focusing on kind of my middle school years.

And I'd like to offer that absolutely free to anybody who would like it, and they just have to go to jamesdivine.net and click on the books and products link. And when they add that book, Sad Boy, Joyful Man, to their cart and enter the code mind shift, all as one word uncapitalized, then it will take off the the price of that, and they'll get a instant download of that as a PDF. That is so awesome. Thank you so much for offering that to to my to my listeners. And I hope that you see some results from that, and some people really take advantage of it, especially if you don't want anybody to know, but you wanna know how he got out of his story.

你知道，去聽吧，因為沒人會知道你有讀過。好嗎？再次感謝你，詹姆斯，來參加節目。我認為這是一個非常重要的主題。也感謝你抽出時間與我們的聽眾交談。非常感謝你邀請我，法蒂瑪。

現在來轉換一下思路。如果你正在聽，如果這集節目是關於你的，而你還沒有談論過或處理過這個問題，以及你遭受性虐待的事實。開始永遠不會太晚，原因如下。壓抑和逃避並不能讓它消失。壓抑和逃避只會讓它像病毒一樣蔓延到你的全身。

它現在就影響著你的生活。它影響你的人際關係。它影響著你與人之間的親密程度，因為你不想再受到那樣的傷害。它影響著你的心態、你的思考方式以及你對自己的看法。它也影響著你的工作。

Deal with the issue because it's already dealing with you. And there is hope for you. And your process of healing and dealing with it may be different than his or the next person's, and that's really okay, but deal with it. Thank you for listening to Mindshift Power podcast. Please like and subscribe to my YouTube channel at the mind shifter.

如果您有任何評論、主題建議，或想成為本集節目的嘉賓，請造訪 FatimaBay.com/podcast。記住，改變思考的力量是無窮的。請關注下週節目。