Welcome to Mindshift Power podcast, a show for teenagers and the adults who work with them, where we have raw and honest conversations. I'm your host, Fatima Bey, the mind shifter. And welcome everyone. Today, we have with us Janice Formicella. She is from Denver, Colorado, and she's a dating and breakup coach and a podcast producer.

But today, she's here to talk about her experiences or at least parts of it. And we're gonna talk about why estrangement from relatives may actually be necessary. I'm gonna start off with giving you the definition of the word estrangement so that there's no confusion. The fact of no longer being on friendly terms or part of a social group. And in this case, we're talking about blood relatives in particular.

珍妮絲，你今天好嗎？我很好。今天是星期五，陽光明媚，很高興來到這裡。謝謝你。

It'll be Tuesday with this air stone. Well But, no, thank you for coming on. I'm so glad that, you decided to come on and and talk with us because you have a whole lot to say. So I will just give the floor to you and tell you to briefly tell the audience your story. So I am completely estranged, from my family of origin.

And just a brief rundown, and it will be brief because it was almost twenty years in the making for me to finally get to the decision two years or a year and a half ago. And I was raised in the Mormon faith. I ended up leaving after attending about a year and a half of, BYU, Brigham Young University. And right after I left, I began to be treated absolutely horrible by everybody in my immediate family. It was extremely painful.

當時非常孤獨。我被排除在各種活動之外。他們對待我的方式很不尊重我，甚至對我說話也很不尊重。我完全被兄弟姊妹排斥，因為我的父母不想讓我受到不良影響，儘管我真的很有責任心，是個好學生，而且在生活中取得了很多成就。所以我們的關係時好時壞，有時甚至三年不說話，然後我又一次又一次地回來，試圖讓這段關係好起來。

And, frankly, in some cases, the treatment became worse. And it was to the point where I felt that I didn't have enough support to interact with them because sometimes it would absolutely take me weeks to recover from being with them in person and just being so rejected. So, yes, about a year and a half ago, it came to a head finally. I did have the experience that a lot of people have with estrangement of, you know, the event or that broke the camel's back. And it was so shocking after so long being out of the church and also trying so hard for so many years.

I was completely devastated. When the dust settled, I decided that I needed to finally cut ties, and I did completely. Alright. Yeah. So we're in the no contact stage of a stranger.

好的。在我們深入討論之前，我想提一下，我現在正在和觀眾說話。我想說的是，真正的家人並不總是有血緣關係。你可以選擇你的家人。你無法選擇你的親戚，但你可以選擇你的家人。

There's a difference between the two. And I think very often, people feel like they they absolutely have to be attached to their family member because Mhmm. Their blood. But that's not actually true. I mean, if you think about it, this is the one relationship that is that people consider to not be voluntary.

All of our other relationships society encourages us to walk away from if we need to, except blood relatives. Yes. Because our cultures, and it's more than just one culture in the world, that teaches us that loyalty to blood relatives, notice I'm saying blood relatives, not family Mhmm. Is absolutely essential. I could tell you for myself personally, I have people that I consider family, and they're not related to me at all.

I happen to have blood relatives that I am happy to have as family too, but I understand that that's not everybody's situation. Mhmm. And I want the audience to know, and I know that you'll talk about this a little bit more. If you are listening and you have family members, relatives that, are not the greatest and you feel like you have nobody, maybe it's because you haven't chosen your family and you're just sticking around relatives. Yes.

社會也鼓勵我們這樣做，這也是我今年想談論這個話題的原因，因為公開談論與父母和兄弟姐妹斷絕關係是相當禁忌的。對我來說，沒有其他方法對我的幸福至關重要，我想讓人們知道，在某些情況下，這是一個可行的、合適的選擇。好的。那麼，讓我們深入探討一下細節。好的。

Why why let's talk about why estrangement from from blood relatives is sometimes necessary. Well, like I just said, it might be crucial for your well-being. I was just pushed down and just stomped upon for so many years that I just didn't see another way out. I saw having them in my life was absolutely doing more harm than good. And this is no behavior treatment that I would ever put up with with people who weren't my family.

And I just decided and also it had been so many years of trying, and I just had to accept the fact that just because you're blood related to people does not mean that they care about you at all. Mhmm. And I know that this is something I get pushback from a lot and maybe will from your audience. But just because you're blood related to someone doesn't even mean that they love you. I walked away from all encounters with them saying to myself, they don't want me.

They don't love me. Like, why am I pushing so hard for this? Yes. And let's let's talk about that right there, what you just said, because I think it's critical. I because I have dealt with so many people and I have counseled so many people and especially with dealing with teenagers.

You your immediate relatives are a lot of times where we get our self value from. And if your immediate relatives are telling you, you're a piece of crap Yeah. And even if they don't say those words but they treat you like that, that is what you began to believe about yourself. So you said it was basically talks I'm rewording what you said. It was toxic to be around your relatives.

Yes. They live in Utah naturally. Yeah. And whenever I would, like I said earlier, come back, I felt that I needed, you know, like, weeks of therapy to just get overseeing them in person. And I didn't have those resources necessarily at at the time.

And also me living in Colorado, I mean, they had a family reunion one year and didn't tell me. Even took a family photo, sent it to me. I mean, these are things that just absolutely devastated me. Why am I pushing for this when, you know, these are people who don't want me? I I know that this is so harsh to say and may be even upsetting to people, but I felt for years that I was the throwaway child.

That's not a good thing to to feel. No. My dear, you're not. Walk away. Yeah.

And you're not a throwaway. But Thank you. When we have when we have our blood relatives who we're taught we're taught as as in our cultures Mhmm. And because it's not just the American cultures, many cultures around the world, we're taught that they're the ones that are supposed to care for us. We're taught they're the ones that if no one else cares for you, they should.

But I wanna point out what Janice just said. Just because they're related to you doesn't mean that they actually love you and care about you. No. I don't know. Hard to hear.

And a lot of people might be like, well, no. That's not true. I have seen it. So it is true. I have seen it.

I have counseled people. I've I one of the things I focus on is helping people to build self esteem because I think it is critical to any success in any area of your life. If you don't believe that you're worth anything, you will act worthless. And and I just know that that is true. So just because your family, your quote, unquote family, but really your blood relatives is supposed to care about you does not mean that they do.

Yes. And many of you many of you might have relatives that do care about you, and I know many of you do, which is beautiful. Yes. However, even if they're imperfect in in how they act all the time, but they still show you that you vow that you're valuable to them. That's good.

你沒必要非得跟他們斷絕關係。我知道。但我必須這麼說，因為有時候人們會把事情推到極端。但重要的是，如果他們說你一文不值，你就不要接受他們給你的價值。嗯。

And I'm someone with a huge amount of confidence and self love. And I was like, why am I doing this to myself? I deserve so much better. Mhmm. Mhmm.

I would say get around people who help build you up and not tear you down, whether they share the same bloodline as you or not. If they are tearing you down and that's all the I don't mean if and that's all they ever do. I don't mean if they're not perfect and they have moments where to hurt your feelings. That's normal. I'm talking about every time you see them, you're you're feeling like Janice did.

你感覺比剛到那裡的時候更糟了。是的。是的。出事了。是的。

And you might wanna consider cutting them off. I don't care who they are. They're not your family. They might be just a relative. Yes.

And, also, rather than just jumping right to cutting them off, try and create some space first and and see how that and see how that goes. And you'll come to the you'll come to your answer the more that you do that and fill into it. Excellent advice. Excellent advice. Don't just immediately cut them off.

先給你們留點空間。我想跟各位觀眾澄清一下，我和Janice已經談過這個問題了，斷絕親屬關係有時是必要的，但這不應該是你首先想到的。對。是的。這不應該是你首先想到的。

We're not saying, you know, your your mama pissed you off last night. Never talk to her again. No. Yeah. This is our last resort.

對。這是最後的手段，但有時也是必要的手段。是的。我們來談談有哪些指標？有哪些跡象？

Because sometimes people are on the fence, and they're listening to us, and they're like, am I in that situation? Should I be doing that? I don't know. But that's my mom. I'm supposed to be dedicated to her.

That's my sister. We're you know, I'm supposed to always be around her. That's my cousin, whatever. My grandma, whoever it is. Is this me?

So what are some of the indicators that we can tell people to kinda look for in their situation? I loved what you said about feeling worse after you engage with these people. I would absolutely look at that and then ask yourself why you consider to get burned, why you consider to allow, Why you continue to allow yourself to to get burned? And so, yes, look at that, and that was very much my situation. I looked forward to seeing them so much and came back to Denver just just absolutely devastated.

And then I will also say, going back to what I said earlier, try and create space, try and have boundaries, set rules with yourself about the types of engagement you will have with them, maybe how many times a year you will have engagement with them, maybe one or two holidays a year. Try it out and then see what happens over time. One of the key indicators for people who do end up cutting their family off is that it it's related to how many times you try to make it work. And the more times you try and make it work, the closer you will go to deciding to cut them off. And so I would definitely look at that first if creating space and boundaries works, and if it doesn't, maybe start to think in this in this way as maybe try to think of estrangement as a possibility.

Let's talk about what what creating space looks like Mhmm. If it works. One of those things is progress. So progress is a process. So if you create space and it makes things better, that's good.

That means there's progress. That means there's hope. You don't necessarily have to cut them off. But just because it doesn't get perfect doesn't mean that there's not progress. And I feel the need to point that out to people because I know that a lot of times people don't you know, they think that there's they go from extremes.

So they think, well, if it's if I if if I try one thing and it's not perfect, well, then it didn't work. If there's progress, then it did work. Yes. If something changed and something got better, that means there's hope for other things that changing it better. No one, and I do mean no one, no relationship, family, romantic, any kind gets better overnight.

Well, and how you how you feel about yourself and how you feel about the situation and if you sense any or if you experience any sense of relief from from making space, that's progress. You know, this is all about how you feel about about yourself, and, you might just be so relieved to only see them a couple times a year or do what I did, which is not live in the same state as them. I was in Australia for five years before I moved to Denver, and I was very mindful of not moving to Utah, being, like, close enough but not too close. And for a lot of people, that is what really works. Yeah.

That's very good advice. Mhmm. The other thing is I wanna bring up another topic that's kinda related to this because I think it's very related to the the subject. We look at people who are drug addicted. Sometimes there are people that will cut off their relatives who are addicts for their own for their own safety, for their own sanity.

有時這是必要的。我想提一下，因為我認為這與現在這個國家息息相關。我們現在的吸毒者數量比歷史上任何時候都多，有時有必要讓他們戒除毒癮。大多數人會盡一切努力避免這樣做。但如果你現在正在聽，並且戒掉了你女兒、表親、姊妹、兄弟，或其他任何他們喜歡的毒品，也不要感到難過。

你未必錯。有時候，當傷痛痊癒，重新開始，努力讓關係再次正常運作時，這些關係是可以修復的。這種情況確實會發生。我非常支持正在康復的人。然而，在你真正康復之前，有時你需要斷絕關係。

有時候你造成的傷害更大。所以，珍妮絲，我想補充你之前說的，你和他們在一起之後總是感覺更糟，感覺需要很多心理治療。我想說，如果他們讓你的生活變得更糟，你或許應該和他們斷絕關係。不只是血親，任何人。好好想想吧。

這些都不是草率的決定。在做決定之前，你需要好好反思一下。和別人談談是個好主意嗎？當然可以。

這就是我這樣做的原因之一。不一定每個人都會來找我聊，但我希望人們能聽到我的故事。我希望人們能聽到我的歷程。我希望人們能夠感同身受，知道他們並不孤單，這就是我喜歡談論這個問題的原因。讓我們談談公平，這樣我們才能保持平衡。

Name a couple of things. We talked about a little bit, but name a couple of things that are not necessarily bad enough for estrangement so that people are a little more clear, on whether they should be considering this or not. Immediately, what comes to mind is that if there is not a pattern of behavior, then I would not just become estranged and cut off your family from maybe one fight or one incident. I, you know, plead with anyone listening to not just walk away because of one blow up. This is a decision that is life changing.

This is a decision that is extraordinarily painful. And so I would absolutely say one fight, one incident is not worth going through this. Promise. I promise you. That's excellent advice.

非常非常好的一點。是的。一場小爭吵。我們都會犯錯。我們都會說一些無意之言。

We all have attitudes at times and tempers. That's just normal human behavior. But when it's a pattern, that's when you have to reconsider. So very, very good advice. Be nonemotional about it.

我就是這樣。我仔細觀察了所有事情，甚至把一些事情寫在日記裡。當我最終決定給父母發一封非常難堪的郵件時，我的確是以一種——就像我說的——不帶任何情緒的方式，而不是一時衝動。說得非常好。

A very valid point, Janice. It's not you that we need you know, when you say remove the emotions, it is true that we need to do that. We need to think from our brains and not our emotions. Think from your your logic, not your emotions when you're making a decision. Yeah.

這並不意味著情感消失了，或者它們不存在了。這並不意味著你不會因為可能會哭而哭泣。哦，是的。我哭了。直到今天，它仍然很痛苦。

是的。但這尤其痛苦，因為你只認識他們。我那麼努力，他們是我的家人。是的。我仍然會時不時地為自己感到難過，但同時，我也為自己所做的一切感到自豪。

Do you have other family now? I have a lot of very, very close friends. I am really lucky to have gotten involved with the ex Mormon community here in Denver, And it is I always say that hanging out with them is kind of like hanging out with a bunch of cousins because we all have the same culture and language and ways that we grew up that are so out there. Yeah. You know?

是的。你知道，在過去十年裡，很多人離開了摩門教會。所以我真的非常非常幸運能加入他們。我有一些朋友遍布全國各地，我知道無論發生什麼，他們都會支持我，我會在凌晨四點拿起電話給他們。我想說，因為我對原生家庭的經歷，以及對最終結果的失望，所以對我來說，「家庭」這個詞已經不那麼重要了。

所以我會說，把這個說出來。我確實有一些很親近的人，我可能會認為他們就像家人一樣親近，但我並不常用這個詞。嗯，根據我一開始的定義，我會說你找到了一個新的家庭。是的，是的。

我真是太幸運了。我知道這一點。就是這樣。我一開始就說過，親戚沒辦法選擇。但家人，我們可以選擇。

Yeah. We can choose who's attached to us. We can choose who's our support system because we all need a support system. Even if it's just two or three people, we all need somebody. We're humans.

我們就是這樣建構的。所以你的家庭，你可以選擇。這完全取決於我最初定義的家庭背景。正因為如此，我對留在我圈子裡的人非常挑剔。哦，當然。

And you Mhmm. 100% should be. Yeah. What advice do you have for a teenager who is in who who might need to because I've seen this. Who might need to exchange himself from their family.

And they're in a situation right now, and they don't know what to do. Tan's hard work. Different for a teen. Oh, yes. I I'm sure it is.

我要說的是，我十幾歲的時候就開始幻想與家人疏遠甚至疏遠。我得說，你必須把安全放在第一位。是的。所以我會考慮一下，大學一年級時待在家裡是否比較安全，與父母保持聯繫是否比較安全。所以，請大家務必考慮一下。

I would also make sure that you are bonding with someone else and really keep that in mind because, like you said, we all need it, and this is going to be rough. And so make sure that you really, what I call, water your relationships with people so that you have others to lean on. And then this is a bit more practical, but something that I wish I would have done earlier and that I would really encourage teens to do is really go out and invest in a vocation and get yourself, you know, some type of job that you love or career path because these are not people you'll necessarily be able to to rely on, and it will become a lot easier to navigate young adulthood if you have that. And learning some of the practical skills was also something that I had to learn later in life. For instance, how to manage money Mhmm.

這是我在摩門教會從未學到的。摩門教並不期望女性擁有工作，或真正處理這些事情。所以，我想說，是的，應該選擇一份職業，並且學習理財知識。是的。非常好的建議。

Very, very sound advice. Thank you. I will also add to that, because I know what's out there when it comes to teenagers and situations that I've seen that are far more common than they should be. Yeah. I'm gonna make I'm gonna use this example.

This teenage this teenager has a grandmother who is just toxic. And let me explain how she's toxic. This grandmother talks about everybody, like a dog behind her back, including her own children to her grandchildren. Just negative all the time, a negative gossip in the family. And some people might go, oh my god.

A grand yet people do exist like that. I've seen it, and I've seen the damage that it done that it does. And I've also seen a granddaughter who who basically will have nothing to do with her grandmother anymore because of how much drama she starts within the family, and she just will not associate with her. And It's very pretty. I I agree with her because of I'm not saying every single detail on here, but, just because of the damage that she does within the family and how messed up a lot of them are because of her being that way.

And I know somebody listening right now might have somebody who's trashy like that. And they and I mean, let's just be real. That's that's really that's just trashy. And they might be your mama. They might be your grandma.

It might be your uncle, but somebody within the family who's because you you're supposed to respect, supposed to. But you can't respect somebody who acts like that. How can you respect somebody when you are 16 and more mature than them? Hello. And they're not respecting you either.

That's a horrible way for a grandmother to teach a young woman how to be. Yeah. And we do wanna look to our elders to give us some sort of guidance as to our We should. We should be able to. And I think for them I think in most situations, we can.

Yeah. But there are situations where we can't, and I wanna address that because that's real. It's very real for a lot of Americans right now. And so I wanna I if if that's you or if that's your sister or whoever, you it's okay if you do. And you're always told you gotta be loyal.

You gotta be loyal. You gotta be loyal. But sometimes that loyal is bullshit. You gotta be loyal to what? What are you really being loyal to?

I really want you to question that. The first person you need to be loyal to is your damn self. Yes. Yes. For real.

You need to be loyal to yourself first because everybody doesn't have a healthy family dynamic. That's reality. Yeah. In your case, it was Mormon. In some cases, it's not an institution or a religion.

這只是一個支離破碎的家庭。所以，如果你的家人是這樣，好吧，這就是你的現狀。有時候，你的家人可能有些不順，但他們仍然對你忠誠。他們仍然對你好。他們仍然在你身邊。

他們還是會聽你的。別打斷他們。他們不完美，他們有問題。是啊。你猜怎麼著？

We all do. But that doesn't mean they need to be cut off. Cut them off when they are causing damage repeatedly, as Janice said earlier, as a pattern, they are causing damage. And I know we're Go ahead. The way we let our family members treat us and the way we engage with our family members will often reflect how we engage and show up in romantic relationships Yep.

和朋友之間也是一樣。有很多共同點。這也是我感興趣的研究方向，所以要練習設定界線。你需要知道如何在所有人際關係中設定和執行界限。所以，如果這個人有點不好，你或許應該承擔起說「好吧」的責任。

So how do I feel comfortable showing up with this person? What boundary or rule do I set with myself around that? And then execute it That's right. First. Now, Janice, tell people what else you do and what services you offer and how they can find you.

I am a breakup and dating coach, and I work with people one on one to overcome their breakups and, you know, let it add life and possibility to your life rather than break you. And then I also offer one on one support to people who might be ready to start dating again after a hiatus. Alright. And how can they find you? I would love it if you would go over to Instagram, Janice Formicella, and say hi to me.

I hang out there all the time. If you send me a DM about hearing this episode, I'll send you something, fun in the mail. And, also, if you're going through estrangement, yeah, just pop in and say and say hi. I'm here to support other people who are going through this. Yes.

各位聽眾朋友，如果您對疏遠有任何疑問，或者懷疑自己是否正處於這種邊緣，而她是一位值得傾訴的對象，因為她在這方面非常精通，能夠幫助您找到平衡，尤其是在您處於這種邊緣時。所以，我想分享一些資源，或許再多說我的故事。我迫切地想幫助別人，讓他們知道，你並不孤單。你沒有瘋。這或許真的是適合你的選擇。

Yeah. And I wanna add to that. If you're listening, if your family has put you to pastor or treat you like a black sheep, sometimes it's not because of what's wrong with you. Sometimes it's because of what's right with you. Yes.

And I did start to feel that way after a while. My siblings hadn't left the church, And, yes, I just felt like there was resentment building maybe around how I was living my life or, I don't know, you know, being free. Who knows? But, yeah, I felt like I was so, so happy, and nobody was cheering me on. And I always thought, yeah.

Maybe it's it's because of that, and I'm doing everything right, and I don't need the church to do it. Yeah. I just wanna add one little thing at the end here. We're talking about family estrangement now. In Janice's situation, it it was the Mormon church.

But I wanna also say, many Jehovah witnesses can tell the exact same story that she can. So if you are a former Jehovah witness and you've been outcast by your former family, it is okay to find a new one, and there's nothing wrong with you. We often say that Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons are, like, cousins when it comes to the type of religion. Yeah. They they are.

They are in many, many ways, so I get that. Yes. Well, thank you, Janice, for coming on. And, audience, she will be back on again, so get used to work. Thank you so much.

This is such an important topic, but as I said earlier, taboo, and I appreciate you being willing to to face it and share it with your audience. Thank you. And now for a mind shifting moment. I want you to think about this, estrangement. In today's episode, we talked about sometimes it might be necessary to cut off blood relatives who are consistently doing damage to you physically or emotionally.

I want you to take that a step further and apply that to everyone around you. Who do you need in your life? Who's enhancing your life and who's damaging it. I want you to reconsider what attachments you have in your life, because some of those attachments, blood related or not, may be doing more damage than good, and it may be necessary to put some distance between you and them. Sometimes you may have to cut them off and sometimes it may just be a distance.

But consider who you have around you, who's attached to you because it matters and it's affecting your life and your future. Just think about it. Thank you for listening to mind shift power podcast. Please like, and subscribe to my YouTube channel at the mind shifter. If you have any comments, topic suggestions, or would like to be a guest on the show, please visit fatimabay.com/podcast.

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