Welcome to Mindshift Power podcast, a show for teenagers and the adults who work with them, where we have raw and honest conversations. I'm your host, Fatima Bey, the mind shifter. And welcome everyone. Today, we have with us Donna C. Moss. She is in Westchester County Of New York.

She is a trainer, speaker, and most importantly, psychotherapist specializing in teens and college students. You all know if you've been listening to me, I am constantly pushing therapy. Well, today, we're gonna talk about how to tell if you have a good therapist. Because we can say get a good therapist all day and night, but how do you know if you have one? So and I have the perfect person to talk about that with.

How are you doing today, Donna? Good. Thank you, Fatima. I'm so glad to be here. I'm glad to have you.

So tell everyone how long have you been a psychotherapist? About thirty years, or more in the field, yes. Wow, so that's a long time. I guess so. Honestly, that's one of the reasons why I have you on here is because you have a perspective that the rest of us can't have.

嗯。您見過不同世代的人，也了解這一代。所以您的視角對我來說非常重要，因為我無法擁有您那樣的視角。那麼，在您從事心理治療的三十多年裡，您認為我們年輕人身上最大的改變是什麼？對嗎？

這個問題現在非常普遍，因為自從新冠疫情期間以來，我國就出現了青少年心理健康危機。好消息是，現在對心理健康的污名化少了很多，人們更容易獲得治療和預防服務，以及更準確的診斷和更優質的藥物。所有這些都是好的，但正如我們所知，由於費用和其他因素，治療師的報酬不夠，仍然存在障礙。很多時候，他們沒有福利。所以，仍然有許多人難以在適當的時間找到合適的治療師，尤其是對年輕人來說，他們並不總是能夠找到合適的治療師，尤其是在他們希望保密的情況下。

So What what do you think what do you see as the different issues? Let's say, a teenager from 1994 Yeah. So to 02/2024. Right. So we're lucky we have this guy, Jonathan Haight.

他寫了一本名為《焦慮的世代》的書，深入闡述了社群媒體的負面影響，以及過度養育、虎媽式教育或對外部世界的恐懼，這些恐懼使父母更加謹慎。然後，孩子們開始轉入地下，尤其是女孩，上網的時間是男孩的兩倍。女孩們基本上掉進了兔子洞，變得更加焦慮和沮喪，因為她們花更多時間待在房間裡玩手機。我們可以看到這是多麼明顯的改變。他說，2011年2月，憂鬱和焦慮的人數出現了最大幅度的成長，再加上對外界的恐懼，這群人開始擁有iPhone。

那時iPhone也開始普及。所以我們知道這兩者之間有著強烈的相關性。所以我聽說，普通青少年大概就是在那時出生的。是的。這意味著普通青少年甚至不知道這一切發生之前的情況。

Right. Correct. Correct. And this has been brought up a lot and, you know, we were sort of more like free range kids or whatever. But Mhmm.

As my 23 year old daughter pointed out, she she and her friends went to see the, the moon eclipse thing, the totality thing. And she said it was '24. Yeah. Yeah. And they she said it was the first time that her generation came together for something positive because they were born into 09/11, and then there was COVID.

And, you know, and now there's even a million other things going on in the world that are really, really negative for them. So they've had a rough generation. I, the reason I'm asking, talking to the audience now, the reason why I'm asking Donna these questions, I'm constantly talking about how this generation is different than us. And as adults, we need to stop trying to compare ourselves to them because they're we are not the same. We are growing up on different planet.

They are growing up on a different planet. And Donna, as a psychotherapist, can point out the specific details to that as a professional, and you can hear some of those things. And if you're a teenager listening, I want you to know that there are some adults here who we do actually understand. We get it. And, and I just think it's important to to note that.

Now when it comes to all of that is very relevant to the rest of this conversation. So when it comes to therapists, all therapists are the same. Right? And every therapist is for everyone. Right?

對。你甚至可以用機器人或人工智慧來做。不，開玩笑的。不。

I mean, of course, we all know that the fit is paramount, not who has the most letters after the name. All of those things we know. And, you you know, that's why I always say at the end of a first session, do you feel comfortable with me? Me personally. It's a personal trusting relationship.

If you don't feel comfortable, there's no space to do this. There really isn't. I don't wanna add because it irritates the crap out of me. You hear me saying it all the time and you it's on my website. I can't stand talking to a clinically trained robot.

Mhmm. Mhmm. And some people are nothing more than that with a title. And I would say, and you can correct me if I'm wrong or reword it if you want, Donna. I would say to youth listening and you're you were willing to seek out therapy and you wanna find a good therapist, you're not sure what to, you know, what to look for at this episode's for you.

如果你發現和你說話的人感覺更像機器人而不是真人，嗯。也許是時候說聲「分手」了。我想再找個人。對。就像其他事情一樣，我多年來聽說有人花在比較汽車品牌的時間比花在心理醫生身上的時間還多。

哦，說得對。你有權利做一些調查，看看自己覺得哪裡舒服，然後就落到那個位置。這是你的特權，你絕對應該被鼓勵這樣做。而且，我會以這個過程作為我的指導。就像，我在聽。

And and, of course, the Zoom and the phone create certain barrier to, let's say, intimate intimate conversations, but not after a while, you get to know the person. It's it's totally fine. So the therapist should not be robotic and should not be have a script and should not just do workbook sheets. They should get to know you. Yes.

Because it's it's all about your humanity, not just about a list of things you're supposed to know and concepts you understand. Right. And empathy. And then also the therapist might not take you, and that's okay too. Like, if someone comes to me and says, I have a six year old boy with ADHD and he's bouncing off the walls, is that for me?

No. I do young girls, you know, young adult girls, teenagers, 30 something women. That's you know, I'm not gonna be starting to work with, you know, other groups of people that I don't know that well. And it's such a relief as an older therapist now to be able to say, you know what? That's not my thing.

And you know what? That is good. A really good therapist does have a special specialty, I would say, or a niche. Yes. It I think it's very important.

And if you're you're for you those of you who are listening and looking to get a therapist, don't assume that because a therapist rejects you or says no, they're not gonna take you or passes you on to someone else, that there's something wrong with you. 99% of the time is simply because they know that they're not the one for you. So just keep that in mind too. It doesn't mean that there's something wrong with you. Sometimes they just know, like, if somebody there's certain populations of people I don't deal with.

I do not counsel because I'm not equipped for that, and it's not my focus. And there's nothing wrong with, you know, there's nothing wrong with that. Some people also come in with like, a lot of teenagers come in with a diagnosis that they found on TikTok. I whatever. So they're like, oh, I have anxiety, and you have to be that person, that specialist.

But you're more than just that. They're I let you try to look at the whole person. Oh my god. Don't don't, don't. Please don't get stuck on a freaking title that someone else slapped on you.

They stamped you as X, Y, Z. So that's all you can ever be. That is 100% B. S. You can be more.

It might be true, but that's not all you are. Right. And also, like, CBT is a popular therapy, and I rely heavily on CBT, cognitive behavioral therapy. It's a great kind of therapy, and it works really well. But I don't stop the therapy and announce, now we're doing CBT.

例如，我經驗豐富，你的治療師也應該如此，能夠無縫銜接不同的方法。我試著理解一個概念和宣布它是兩回事。對。你宣布的是課程，沒錯。他們有時會說，哦，那我們為什麼不做認知行為治療（CBT）呢？

And I'm like, well, actually we are doing CBT because I'm challenging your thought process. Yes. And and as you should. Absolutely should. I do that as coach as well.

It's one of the few things we got as one of the many things we have crossover on. That's right. Now let's let's talk since we're already talking about it, let's point out just a few pointers of how someone can tell that they have a bad therapist or at least a therapist that doesn't that's not a good match for them. Right. So, there should be some structure, like, you know, in the first few sessions, you know, you have some goals and you are making some progress towards those goals.

And we have some measurements for that, so it's not just like shooting in the dark. Mhmm. But you have to check-in with your internal space and ask yourself, do I feel better? And you're allowed to compare and contrast and try different approaches. And it may take some time.

Some people like to do therapy just like going to the gym for their whole lives. I do that just to check-in, but other people want it for a time limited, and that structure can be discussed. You can ask the therapist. Yeah. Do you think I'm making progress?

I don't feel like I'm making progress. What would you like to work on? What would you like to change? Open up that dialogue. So is a therapist who just says who just is a yes man and agrees with everything you say an excellent therapist?

不，當然不是。因為好吧。因為孩子也想要回饋。他們不要，對吧。

They wanna relate to you want they want you to be relatable. So Exactly. If you get if you have a therapist that just agrees with everything you say and the therapist is going to ask you how you feel, how do you feel about such and such? That's a normal question. However, if that's all they do and they just agree with you, you are dealing with a robot.

Yeah. Exactly. And you wanna stay with the process. Like, I may have some ideas and agendas in my head, but I'm gonna go where you are. And that's what we're taught to do in school is meet the client where they are and then work with the other professionals in their lives, collaborate, find see if there's progress.

If there's no progress, I'm not gonna keep you. I'm going to say, you know what? You may be better served with x y z. And that's what a good therapist sounds like. Mhmm.

一個糟糕的治療師會一直騙你的錢，即使你沒有進步。對。這真的讓我很生氣，因為人們認為他們自己有問題，因為他們沒有進步，但實際上他們只是找了一個對進步不感興趣的治療師。這話說得對。這話說得對。

And and any kind of therapy and there's different kinds of therapy. So we're just talking about principles right now because the details are gonna vary, you know, depending on the type of therapist you are talking about. But I can't stand that. I I just can't stand that when people don't, aren't really looking at whether or not you're growing. And and also, Don, is that what are some of the good things that people can look for in a therapist?

Right. So some people just need a little extra time to grow up. I really believe that. Yeah. And they're not they don't have to have a diagnosis.

It's just a really hard transition growing up. I mean, let's face it. Then other people need more, like, in-depth, like, is it anxiety or depression or both? Or is it just loneliness? A lot of times, I find that boredom mimics depression.

所以我總是問他們有什麼嗜好？他們的興趣是什麼？你能冒險嗎？你能嘗試新事物嗎？如果你什麼都不做，你就不會改變。

如果你什麼都不做。身為人類，我們生來就是為了成長。我們生來就是為了改變。所以，當我們違背這個設計時，一切就會亂套，失去平衡，無法正常運作。沒錯。

Right. And we end up with issues. So now is therapy is therapy only for people that are retarded and crazy? Absolutely not. I mean, some kids say like, oh, I feel bad.

I don't have a big enough problem. It's okay. You know? You have a little anxiety. It's very workable.

嗯。你不會死，不過沒關係。沒事的。這有點像去健身房。你可以做一些具體的事情，也可以做一些大事，你知道，但願不會造成精神創傷。

But anyone can can look into themselves without any shame or fear in theory. I I I said it that way, and some people find those words offensive, and I know that they are. However, they're the real words that some people use Mhmm. To describe themselves or others. I've heard it, So that's why I'm just being real with that.

Mhmm. Sometimes I think people don't recognize that it's actually healthier Mhmm. To talk to a therapist, even if you only talk to them once a month. Yeah. And, you know, I used to to bounce your brain.

Yeah. When I was doing in person, occasionally, like, one young client would see another leaving, which, of course, is not ideal. But they would be so happy because they would be like, oh, there's other kids like me that do I'm not the only one. Yeah. Yeah.

There has been a stigma, and I think it's still there. And I think we are in the process of getting out of that stigma. But, you know, for generations, it's been a stigma. Oh, if you see a therapist, it must be there must be something wrong with you. You must be crazy.

事實並非如此。事實上，最瘋狂的人是那些不去看心理醫生的人。沒錯。我的許多年輕客戶都過著了美好而充實的生活，他們仍然與我保持聯繫。知道你幫助他們克服了成長過程中最大的障礙，感覺真好。

That doesn't mean that we pathologize everything about you. Yes. Let me ask you this, Donna, because it's something that I believe is too prevalent. But if I'm wrong, correct me. I think way too often people are diagnosed with depression because they have a depressive moment, which to me is not the same thing as being depressed.

對。這就像在加油站停車並不意味著你就是一輛車。你可能在開車。你在那裡停車加油，但你並不住在加油站。是的。

You're you're you're so right. And but when you're a teenager, everything's exaggerated. So you don't know. You don't you don't know what you don't know. And that's one of my favorite expressions.

你不能因為之前不知道的事而責怪自己。沒錯，非常正確。所以，是的，活得越久，眼界就越廣，青少年很難擁有這種眼界。沒錯。

Unless they've been through a lot because there are and you know this too. There are some teenagers that have been through more than most of us adults. Right. And they have a level of experience and maturity that some 40 year olds don't have. Right.

我也見過這種情況。是的，確實如此。 「韌性」這個詞在我的工作中非常重要，因為有些人天生就具備一些……你知道，我喜歡關注人們的優勢，他們認為自己擁有更好的性格去克服逆境。他們可能天生如此，而有些人只是被這種性格擊倒了。他們從生活中汲取韌性的來源真的很有趣。

Yes. And some of them are quite impressive. Uh-huh. Definitely. I'm always addressed by people who who still stand strong and do what they need to do regardless of all of the, you know, the the the bats that have been swinging at their head, so to speak.

你知道嗎？對。嗯，我親身經歷過。我的意思是，這就是我做這件事的原因。我喜歡和孩子們一起工作，因為他們充滿活力、清醒，而且他們可以迅速做出改變。

Yeah. That's true. But in my life, I went through so many different ups and downs and it just took forever to get to that place where I felt more myself and capable. For me, I had low self esteem all my life. Like, really Me too.

是的。容易被拒絕，自尊心低，嗯。我非常非常不擅長譴責別人，沒有人能比我更狠地揍我。我也是。我微笑著，領導別人，表現得很堅強，但他們卻不知道。

ETERN internally, you know, I had all that going on. It took me a long time to get to the point of having confidence. I wouldn't have done this years ago. Me too. It took me it literally took me decades to feel a little bit empowered in my in myself again.

Something I've come to learn. Mhmm. I'm not as bad as I thought I was. Same. Same.

你們當中有很多聽眾也需要了解自己這一點。是的。有時候，你可以看看自己的履歷，我會問，這些是誰做的？難道不是我做的嗎？有時候，我回頭看看自己寫的東西，會想，我說了這些嗎？

Oh, see. Right. Or people or clients will say to me, like, you said something so amazing and profound to me. It changed my life. I'm like, I did?

Yes. And as we grow, we we we learn more about ourselves. And when having a therapist to talk to can help you sort out those thoughts and come to that realization. Mhmm. So there doesn't have to be something wrong with you for you to go see the therapist.

有時候，它只是為了提升你。對某些人來說，就是這樣。你本身沒什麼問題。對。不管怎樣，治療師是必要的，因為他們能幫助你平衡思緒。

If you keep all your thoughts in your head and they never come out, you never get a chance to sort them out. It's like puzzle pieces in a bag. We can't see the whole picture because they're in a bag. So sometimes we need to we need to get Also when you're tamping yourself down and people pleasing your whole life, you get more anxious because it's stuck in your body. And that was the other big breakthrough in the last thirty years is that trauma lives in the body.

確實如此。真的。這就是我非常敬佩的貝塞爾范德考克最大的收穫。他寫了一本名為《身體永不忘記》的書，在疫情期間毫無緣由地榮登暢銷書榜首，因為它就像一本關於童年創傷的深奧小書。嗯。

But everyone felt traumatized, so they picked up the book. Yeah. Yeah. They did. And now we understand you gotta combine the mind body interventions and let the client decide what they need to do to get unstuck.

You don't it's not a top down thing. You have to buy into it. You can't be doing more work than the client. Yes. That is a % true.

We cannot and as a coach, I do this too. Mhmm. I I will lead you to the water, but you're gonna drink. Right. I am not doing it for you.

Right. You know, if you wanna run the race, I will encourage you on the side, and I'll be your coach. I am not running for you. Mhmm. I am not, you know, I'm not I'm not pulling you in a wagon either.

That doesn't help. That doesn't help. Even for example, I did this amazing thing. I was preparing for, a a meet a family meeting with one of my clients this morning, and I was making notes and everything else, and they didn't show up. I'm like, you know, that's not my fault.

不，你得出現。你得和我妥協。你做不到。你只有想成長才能成長，而且很遺憾，我們也沒辦法強迫任何人成長。我知道，身為教練，如果我決定是否要…你知道，就像治療師一樣，我決定是否要接受一個客戶，有些人我會拒絕。

Mhmm. For that very reason, I can see that they're not ready to actually put the work in. Mhmm. They don't need to be perfect. I I'll meet people where they are.

我對此沒有意見。我需要看到的是成長的意願，為了成長而改變的意願，以及對改變持開放態度的意願。你明白嗎？改變對每個人來說都不容易。我明白。

And you might have to go at your own pace, but that willingness is what I look for. And if I don't see it, we're done. Because I can't nobody can help you. Do with motivation. One of my clients, likes to, at the end of the session, wrap up with, like, a little phrase.

Like, what's my phrase for the week? And we come up with it together. Like, this week, I'm gonna let things roll off of me. Or this Oh, I like that. Week, I'm gonna wake up earlier.

Or this week, I'm gonna focus not focus on what everyone else thinks about me. You know? And then you pick up some it becomes more habitual if you put the focus there. Yep. Little focuses at a time is how we build anything.

Yeah. I I wanna go back to something you talked about a minute ago and just to clarify because I think it's important to clarify this point because too many people, think in extremities and don't realize they're making a mistake. There is a difference between can you explain the difference between a therapist, that challenges you versus the client who doesn't want to be challenged. So if that is the therapist is challenging you, does that automatically mean that they're just a mean jerk? Oh, gosh.

不。我的意思是，這是一個持續的回饋循環。對吧？你必須傾聽，然後反思。而且，有一位病人告訴我，我其實希望你多挑戰我，因為我比較隨和。

So I said, okay. No problem. And I tried it a little bit with her and she responded much better. So everybody's different. Yes.

And also everybody's growth rate is different. So it might take me six days to do something, and that might take you six months. We are not the same and that's okay. Yeah. So please don't compare yourself to everybody else's growth scale.

You're not them. You are you. Uh-huh. And we understand that. And you're willing to work with that.

We understand that everybody works on the same timeline. So you need to understand that about yourself. I see people that get impatient with themselves because they feel like, well, I went to a therapist and there's just I I'm still messed up and it's been six months. Right. Right.

Exactly. I mean, in in body work, you will do, like, I'm looking I wrote down the word consolidation, like, in my yoga class. After you do a pose and hold a pose, you give it a minute for it to consolidate inside of you. And that's the same what I think of therapy. Like, it might feel like three steps forward, two steps back.

That's very common. Mhmm. And you're giving yourself a little time to consolidate what you've learned, but that's all. I completely agree. Now, Donna, tell us what else do you do?

跟我們講講你現在正在進行的專案吧。是的。我啟動了一個新項目，分享我三十年來與青少年和年輕人進行治療的經驗，並在我的網站上開設了一門課程，可以購買。課程網址是 donnacmoss.com，正斜線課程。這門課程名為“與青少年和年輕人進行治療的協調與連結”，旨在幫助其他治療師學習如何從我獨特的風格和方法的角度，更好地與青少年合作，從而更好地與他們建立聯繫。

是的。所以治療師們聽好了。是的。我認為治療師們聽好了。你可以，是的。

I mean, you can in other words, learn from an experienced professional, you know, something that you might not know starting out. Yes. I think it's important that we listen to different voices so that we be we can gain balanced thinking. Yeah. That's one thing I love that this podcast has done for me.

I've learned a lot. Yeah. Since I started just talking to different guests, I learned about things I didn't know and understand before. Mhmm. And I feel like that makes me a more balanced person.

對。在我人生的這個階段，能說出「你知道嗎？我不知道」真的讓我感到無比自由。但我會問，我會研究，我會回覆你。這又一次讓我擁有了更平衡和成熟的思維。

Yeah. The immature, the imbalance will go, I'm a make up something right now because I I need my ego to pretend like I know everything. That's it. Right. And you don't want a narcissistic therapist or an ego driven therapist.

Yes. Thank you for bringing that up. Yes. Oh my god. Because I How do we how can we tell?

怎麼說呢？嗯，因為好吧。因為這個人基本上會一直談論自己，這完全是整個過程的一部分。最大的一個。是的。

Yeah. And what I do is I do share a lot with my clients. I get to know them. We've it feels like almost like a friendship. Mhmm.

But I I will only share when I think it's prudent and appropriate. Like, oh my God, that happened to your dog. That happened to my dog too. My God. Right.

Relatable. Relatable. Again, like normalizing their experiences by saying other people have those experiences too, and so do I. I am not above you. You can trust me because I'm not trying to put myself above you and be a know it all.

But if you're just going on and on about your own problems for the whole time, that's not gonna be that's not productive. Get your own therapy. Alright. Well, Donna, how can I find you? What's tell them your website.

Again, donna c moss dot com or donna c moss dot com forward slash course. Buy the course and learn from from experience. Well, Donna, thank you so, so much for coming on. I really enjoyed this conversation and even more of the conversations we've had off air. Aw.

You too are good, Tema. You are so cool. And, also, I wanna add, I do like to use humor in in all my work. It's so powerful. It just is so powerful to just keep put people at ease.

It is. I use humor a lot. Mhmm. I mean, people here here I have a crazy personality anyway. I don't hide it, but but it it but it does help.

它能讓人安心。你說得完全正確。它確實有幫助。但它並不總是適合所有情況。你知道嗎？

再說一次，你也想保持平衡。對。但這確實有幫助。它能讓人們感覺更親近。沉默也一樣。

你可以順其自然。你可以為自己留出安靜的空間。這也是治療的另一個重要部分。很多事情都是在沉默中發生的。是的。

Indeed. Because we let it happen. We leave it be. Good and bad, but we're talking about the good right now. But you learn to coregulate with the therapist.

Okay. We're gonna take it down a notch, and that's fine. Let's just breathe and be positive. Good point. Good point.

嗯，唐娜，再次感謝你今天的到來。我很高興我們能有這樣的機會。現在，讓我們換個角度思考。我想讓你思考一下。說到治療，今天我們討論了什麼是好的治療師，什麼是壞的治療師。

But regardless of what kind of therapy you're talking about or who the therapist is, 50% of good therapy is you. Are you meeting the therapist? Are you being honest? Are you being real about what happened? They can't help you if you lie to them.

And the truth is that's an issue. And when you do have a good therapist and you feel like the therapy is working really well, the same thing applies. 50% of that is you. Thank you for listening to Mindshift Power Podcast. Please like and subscribe to my YouTube channel at the mind shifter.

如果您有任何評論、主題建議，或想成為本集節目的嘉賓，請造訪 FatimaBay.com/podcast。記住，改變思考的力量是無窮的。請關注下週節目。