Welcome to Mindshift Power Podcast, a show for teenagers and the adults who work with them, where we have raw and honest conversations. I'm your host, Fatima Bey, the mind shifter. And welcome, everyone. Today, we have with us doctor Ed Dobby. He is the emotions doctor, and he's out of California.

He has over thirty two years with the California Youth Authority as a senior psychologist and supervisor. He has worked directly and specifically with incarcerated women who hurt themselves, which is probably why we have him on the show. Cutting women young women cutting themselves has become a very big issue in The US, and it's actually more common than most of you probably realize. So this particular episode is meant to address this, and this episode is specifically for cutters and those who care about them, whether your parents, grandparents, counselors, siblings, whichever applies. So how are you doing today today, doctor Dolby?

I'm doing great. Thank you for asking. How about yourself? I'm good. I I love talking to you.

您的豐富理解不僅僅是知識，而且非常令人著迷。所以我很期待這次對話。像我一貫的做法一樣，我喜歡直接切入主題。所以，首先請您告訴我們周圍很多人不理解的事情。為什麼年輕女性會自殘？

Well, the short answer is that women who self harm are attempting to substitute physical pain for emotional pain. It's distraction is what they're doing. Instead of it it's difficult for them to feel the emotional pain because that's hurt that hurts, and it's hard to deal with. So they substitute physical pain, which is more direct, clear, and in the moment. That's something that I think a lot of people don't understand because I will say that when people look at young girls, especially adults, and they look at young girls regarding themselves, like, why is she doing that?

Is she crazy? What's wrong with her? And hearing what you just said makes logical sense, but I think some people still don't get it. But I but you're right. That is that is the short answer.

But let me ask you this, because there are lots of other substitutes for not dealing with our issues and not dealing with pain. Would you consider alcohol or any kind of drugs or I'll just say substances because they're all in the same category. Doing substances instead of dealing with the pain, is that similar? I would say it's very close because it's a distraction. When you use weed or you drink alcohol or whatever it happens to be, you're numbing your senses so that you don't feel whatever's going on emotionally.

So, yeah, it's probably very similar. Yes. I wanna point that out because I know many of the listeners are just like, oh, well, you know, I don't cut myself, so I don't know if this applies. Yeah. But you're doing this other stuff?

It's the principles behind it still apply. And why is why do you think that there are you know, as I just said, there's weed, there's there's alcohol, there's all kinds of pills and drugs. There's a lot of things that people do to try to pacify the real issue instead of dealing with it or to try to, ease the pain, so to speak. Why is cutting themselves very often the choice of harm? To answer your question, if you think about it, when you hurt yourself, you bump an elbow or you do something else physically, the pain is immediately, immediate, it's intense, and it grabs your attention.

Oh, okay. And that's what's what's the reason why women will substitute physical pain for emotional pain. Because it's very clear and present, and it grabs their attention, and it takes their attention away from the emotional pain and the issues that they're facing that's leading to the pain that they're feeling emotionally. Oh, very good point. Very good point.

I like that deeper dive into that. And and there there's something else that that's important to understand. Mhmm. When a woman cuts on herself or does whatever she does, she is doing the best she can in the moment in order to cope. It's not the best possible action to be taken, but it's the best action that she knows how to take, which is why she's doing it.

Good point. Very good point. I think that's a good point because, again, when it comes to the judgment of of women that young women that do this, it can be pretty intense. And and trying to look at it and, you know, for people to try to understand instead of judge, I think is more helpful. And I think the way you just explained it is explains it really well.

Now let me ask you this, because I know you have a lot to say on this. Is self cutting the same thing as a suicide attempt? No. It's not. Why not?

嗯，一個試圖自殺的人，想要結束痛苦。他們不一定想死。他們想要結束痛苦。嗯。當他們自殘時，他們實際上是在行使一種選擇，在那一刻，用身體上的痛苦來代替情緒上的痛苦，正如我之前所說。

They don't wanna die. They don't want their life to end. They just want the emotional pain to end. So if you think about it, if you think about the action of self cutting, that's you wanna intervene to take a look at what the issues are that are leading to the emotional pain. Mhmm.

如果你認為這是企圖自殺，那你就是從完全不同的角度看待它了。對。就像，他們想結束自己的生命。不，他們想結束痛苦。

任何試圖自殺的人，再說一遍，都是一種選擇，說“我想結束痛苦”，但這和自殘的人是兩個不同的層次。如果他們真的想自殺，他們可能會用其他方法，而不是自殘和製造痛苦。他們會吃藥，或做他們正在做的事情。嗯。他們不想死。

他們希望痛苦，情感上的痛苦，能夠結束，或者他們想轉移注意力，所以他們選擇了割腕。因為很多時候，割腕並不致命。是的，你說得對。割腕不會導致死亡。

And and that's the difference, if that makes sense. Absolutely. I think it's I think it's very important to point that out, and and I know you do too, which is, you know, part of the conversations that we've had for people to understand that. Because I think sometimes in our and and I'm speaking in general terms across America, in our, quote, unquote, systems, especially school systems, we tend to assume that if they're they're cutting, that they're trying to commit suicide, and we put them on suicide watch, which does nothing. That's like putting a Band Aid on your elbow when you stub your toe.

這毫無意義，因為它沒有解決當前的問題。我見過這種情況。這一點很重要。因為如果我從自殺的角度來處理你，那麼我必須了解你為什麼選擇這種方式來解決你面臨的問題。如果我將你割腕的行為視為試圖用身體上的痛苦來代替情緒上的痛苦，那麼我就會注意是什麼讓你先感受到情緒上的痛苦，以及這些問題是什麼。

So it's a mindset that I have Mhmm. When you're self cutting, I'm looking at what what issues are giving you the emotional pain instead of focusing on you trying to take your own life. So my focus is different. Right. And it should be because I just think it's important for listeners right now, and especially those if you're working at a school in any capacity and you have to deal with with, these young women to understand everything that doctor Dobbie just said.

Recognizing the difference, and you're not gonna recognize that by staring at them and judging them. You're you're you might have to have a conversation. You might just have to listen. I mean, there are there are a lot of things. Is there a way that a school administrator can tell the difference?

That's a very interesting question. And it depends on how sophisticated your school administrator is. Good point. Yeah. If your school administrator is psychologically minded and is and is can realize that the the pain that the kid is in, the young woman is in, then they can approach it nonjudgmentally and indicate that they want to that they're there to help, and they wanna get the young woman the help that she needs.

如果孩子自殘，需要幫助他獲得安全感，我想非常謹慎地說。他們可能需要根據孩子的行為以及自殘的嚴重程度來監視他們。但問題不在於讓他們自殺，然後就這樣放任不管。對。你應該和孩子一起努力，讓她明白你會在她身邊幫助她。

如果你能把這一點傳達給學校管理者，這就是你想要完成的工作，如果這說得通的話。這確實說得通。我很高興你這麼說，因為我覺得有必要說出來，因為我覺得可能有人親眼目睹過這種情況，他們沒有正確的心態來處理這些事情，就像你說的，把他們列入自殺監視名單，然後就不管了。這又說回來了，你為什麼要把一個強盜放在手肘上？是啊。

And it's not solving anything. And I just wanna make sure we address that too because I I do know that that is is an issue. It doesn't get it doesn't get pressed, but it happens. Yeah. If you're talking to school administrators, I can lay out for you some of the areas where the young woman might be feeling some pain, if that would be helpful.

Yeah. Some of the issues where the young woman might have trouble dealing is she might be dealing with criticism from peers. She might be feeling worthless. She might be feeling overwhelmed by stress. There might be too much going on in her life in terms of her coping, or she might be bored.

The important thing to understand is that the self cutting is a sign that alarm bells are going off in her mind. Mhmm. And she's having trouble dealing with whatever the issue happens to be. Emotions emotions are signals that things are going on in our life that need our attention. That's what emotions are, and that's why we have them.

So if your administrator understands that the self cutting is telling the administrator, him or her, that this kid is attempting to cope with emotional issues, then the administrator can go in if the administrator has time and say, I want to understand. I know I can see that you're hurting, and you're attempting doing the best you can to cope with it. Help me understand what you're experiencing from your point of view. What is going on with you that is so bad that you feel you need to cut on yourself in order to cope with it? Excellent.

Excellent point. And I'm so glad you said that. And I think a lot of people really need to hear what you're saying, who work with these young women. Because all of us who work with these young women, no matter what our capacity is, we all can make a big difference or we can make a big blunder of a difference. And listen, if we listen to what you're saying, I think most of us can make better choices, and try to make a more positive difference or at least try to understand.

我覺得這太關鍵了。現在，多比醫生，我希望你直接跟任何知道這集是關於他們的人談談。他們可能在偷東西。也可能在悄悄地偷。也可能他們不想跟任何人說。

They're embarrassed. Whatever. Talk to directly to, you know, a young woman right now who's in this situation. Okay. If you're listening to this podcast, one thing I want you to understand right off the bat is that you're stronger than you think you are.

By listening to this podcast, what you're telling me is that you are looking for some help to deal with the issues that you're facing. Now I don't know what those issues are, but I do know that you understand that the method you're using of self cutting probably is not working the way you would like it to. And what I mean by that is this, when you self harm, you substitute physical pain for emotional pain. And in the short term, that works. The physical pain makes the emotional pain go away.

However, as I'm sure you're probably aware, once the physical pain dies down, the emotional pain comes back. And now you're in a position where you've got the same emotional pain and you've got physical scars as well. What's important for you to understand is you are doing the best you can right now in the moment to deal with the emotional issues and the things that are going on in your life that are troubling you. Let me say that again. You are doing the best you can in order to cope with the issues that you're facing.

The challenge is that the method you're using isn't doing what you want it to do. Think of yourself as a project. You're in school and you're you're given a project that you have to do complete for the next day. And you go home and you struggle with it, and you're just it's not working. You don't know how to do it.

So you reach out and you ask for help. Once you get that help, now you can complete the project. When you think of yourself as a project, what I'm trying to explain is that you have issues you're facing. It might be issues at home. It might be issues at school.

I don't know what those issues are. But I'm telling you that there is help that's available for you. If you have access to a computer, you can Google nine eight eight lifeline, l I f e l I n e dot org. Now I'm saying this because there are people there that it's a twenty four hour line that can help you and give you some resources. That's available to you.

I would also say that the issues that you're facing, you can learn to deal with. There are answers, and there are resources that you can access to help you deal with those. Once you deal with those issues, the emotional pain will decrease and you won't need to resort to self cutting in order to substitute the physical pain for the emotional pain. Again, let me emphasize, you're doing the best you can to deal with emotional issues. Dealing with emotional pain is very difficult.

對很多人來說，這很艱難，你用身體上的痛苦來取代情緒上的痛苦。長遠的解決方法是處理你面臨的問題，這樣情緒上的痛苦就會消退，你才能繼續你的餘生。我希望你理解我的意思。絕對理解。感謝你直接與他們交談。

I I this is why I have you on here so you could speak directly to them. My heart goes out to them, and I wanna give them all a big fat hug. But sometimes it's good to hear from another voice other than just mine. What what can we, those of us who are around cutters, whether it's a niece, whether it's our daughter, whether it's someone at school, a sister, whoever. What could Those of us who are around them and we really care and we don't know what to do, what can we do?

重點在於不帶評判，嗯。並且要從理解的角度去對待自殘者。是的。我的意思是，當你開始介入一個自殘的人時，他們的第一個反應會是，你不理解。

Right. And from their point of view, they're absolutely correct. You can't know as an inch as a respond first responder, you can't know what they're going on what's going on with them from their point of view, and that's the job you want to accomplish. So what you can say is, I can see that you're hurting, And I don't know what's going on with you, but I really want to understand, and I really want to help. So please help me understand from your point of view the hurt that you're experiencing and what's going on with you because I really want to help.

When you do that, you're being nonjudgmental. You're giving them the opportunity to explain to you, and you're saying that, no. You don't understand, but you want them to help you help them. Thank you for talking directly to them because I know that there are listeners right now who really need to hear what you have to say. And I think, as we both really said in this episode, the biggest key is to to don't approach it with a attitude of judgment because that's Yeah.

The areas where you want to listen for as a first responder is is the self cutter dealing with criticism? Are they not do they feel like they don't measure up? Are they feeling worthless? Are they feeling hopeless? Are they feeling overwhelmed?

Is there too much going on in their life? Now I mentioned all of those areas not for you to necessarily say, is this what's going on? Is that what's going on? And question it, but just to listen for what when she's talking to you, listen for the areas that may be troubling to her so that then you can offer suggestions rather than coming in and saying, well, is it this, is it that, and here's what you need to do. That's not the way you wanna approach it.

You want to be a listener initially until you understand before you start giving advice. Yes. Thank you for saying it just the way you said it. Perfect. I also wanna let the listeners know that I'm going to add, the website that, doctor Dabi just spoke of to the show notes or the podcast description.

So the 988lifeline.org, I think you said, I will be adding that to, I'll be adding that so all of you will be able to just click on it if it applies. And that way you can, you know, not have to call anyone. You can actually look online and chat with someone if that's easier for you. So, doctor Dobby, tell everyone else. What else do you do?

嗯，我從青年管理局退休了，所以我有一個博客，裡面有各種各樣的資訊。我從青年管理局退休了，我的部落格叫theemotionsdoctor.com，裡面有各種關於情緒的資訊。所以這是一個可用的資源。你可以點選左上角的索引標籤，然後往下拉，就能找到各種關於情緒的資訊。我還做播客。

That's about it at this point. I'm because I'm retired and taking it easy. I wanna add to that. I strongly advise that everyone go to his website and, actually look at his blog. What I like about his blog that I find different from others is not only is it good useful information, but he has topics.

You can actually click on topics. You can look at topics about anger, about well, I don't know. Just name the emotion. He's got a bunch of different ones there. And you can see all the different blog topics that he has without looking through them by date.

我還沒見過多少部落格這麼有條理，所以我覺得它挺好的。而且它的寫作風格簡潔易讀，我強烈推薦。真的非常棒。我的意思是，他部落格上的內容通常需要付費才能看到。所以我覺得對很多人來說，這是一個非常棒的地方。

So So if you don't want anybody to know that you're looking up stuff, it's a great way to do it. Just go to his website and look at the blog. Well, doctor Dolby, thank you for coming on. It's been a a pleasure speaking with you and I'm truly, truly hope that this episode is a life changer for someone. Thank you.

Well, thank you for having me. I hope that the information's been helpful. And just in in closing, let me say again to anybody who's listening to this, you are stronger than you think you are. Help is available to to you. You need to reach out and realize that there are answers to the issues with which you're struggling.

現在，讓我們換個角度思考。對於所有聽眾，我想在你們的腦海裡植入一個想法的種子。你們可能並沒有自殘，而是用性、毒品、酒精或其他物質來代替。我希望你們反思一下，我是否在做一些自我傷害、自我破壞的事情來平息痛苦，而不是去處理它？

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