Fatima Bey《心靈轉換者》：0:01

Welcome to MindShift Power Podcast, the only international podcast focused on teens, connecting young voices and perspectives from around the world. Get ready to explore the issues that matter to today's youth and shape tomorrow's world. I'm your host, fatima Bey the MindShifter. Hello and welcome everyone. Today we have with us Dr Ed Daube, and he is the emotions doctor. He is out of California, he is an author and he also spent over 32 years with the California Youth Authority as a senior psychologist and supervisor, and he is, in particular, an expert on this topic, and he is we're going to take a real an expert on this topic. We're going to take a real deep dive into this topic and you're going to love listening to him. How are you doing today, Dr. Daube?

Ed Daube 博士：0:51

我很好，法蒂瑪。謝謝你的邀請。

Fatima Bey《心靈轉換者》：0:54

謝謝你再次來。我喜歡直接進入正題。我們先從……開始吧。

Ed Daube Ph.D: 1:03

Explain to us, mr Emotions Doctor, what are emotions? Well, that's an interesting question and it's a topic that most people do not understand. Emotions are tools and there is what's called the emotions cycle, and let me explain how that works. All of us are constantly scanning our environment for threat. We're hardwired to do that, and when we lived in caves that worked, because all threats out there were going to kill us. They were survival threats. Most of the threats today are psychological threats, and that's different.

Ed Daube Ph.D: 1:37

So the way the emotion cycle works is we automatically scan our environments for threats and when we perceive a threat, subconsciously, the amygdala sets us up for what's called fight or flight and then, when that happens, you feel the emotion and your body is ready to deal with whatever the threat it happens to perceive. That's the emotion cycle, that's the way it happens to perceive, that's the emotion cycle. That's the way it works, and that part of the cycle is subconscious and we have no control over it, and because of that, the myth is that our emotions control us and we don't control them, and it's only true for the initial reaction to the perceived threat. Now, since we are far evolved beyond our cave people, the emotion cycle continues because now we have the option of taking a look and assessing what's going on, whether the threat is real or not. What's going on, whether the threat is real or not? So part of the emotion cycle is you perceive the threat, you react unconsciously and then you have to train yourself to take a step back physically and take a deep breath which lowers your arousal level, and now you can move into mastering that emotion. Let me state that again Once you feel the emotion, you then manage it by taking a step back physically from the situation, which gives you physical safety, and then taking a deep breath.

Ed Daube Ph.D: 3:19

Once you do that, now you can move into emotional mastery, because now you have the option of using the thinking part of your brain, which is the thinking part of your brain, the cerebrum, and you can now ask what is going on? How real is the threat? When you do that, you have the option of either continuing to act as if the threat is real if it is, or choosing not to take action. That's mastering the emotion. So that's the emotion cycle, when you understand that every emotion has a specific message. The message of anger is there's a threat out there and I can overcome that threat by throwing enough force at it. Anger prepares you for war, as opposed to an emotion like anxiety, where the message is there may be a threat out there and you have to assess whether or not the threat is real and whether you want to take action. So every emotion has a specific message. When you understand the message, you can choose to assess whether the threat is real and what you're going to do about it, if that makes sense.

Fatima Bey The MindShifter: 4:25

So I want to clarify something. So you say a perceived threat when it comes to anger. So what if I'm angry about an injustice?

Ed Daube Ph.D: 4:34

好的，這是個好問題。你必須捫心自問，這種不公義究竟是源自於你對某件事不對勁的感知，還是一種真實的威脅？這種不公義究竟是真實存在的，還是你臆想出來的？因為你誤解了當時的情況，因為你對正在發生的事情產生了誤解。換句話說，你最初認為它是一種不公正，但實際上並不存在不公正，在這種情況下，你會選擇退後一步，袖手旁觀，什麼也不做。但如果你正視它，發現確實存在不公正，那麼你必須決定如何消除它？然後，你就可以採取你選擇的行動，如果這說得通的話。

Fatima Bey The MindShifter: 5:17

確實如此。我想舉個例子。你不尊重我媽媽，現在我很生氣，想打你的臉。

Ed Daube Ph.D: 5:23

Where's?

Fatima Bey The MindShifter: 5:24

the threat? Where's the threat in that?

Ed Daube Ph.D: 5:26

The threat is to your value. That says my mother deserves respect and you need to give it to her. Now the question is the question is have I done something to disrespect your mother? Because I misunderstood what she was saying, or because maybe she provoked it and that's what you have? To look at.

Fatima Bey The MindShifter: 5:50

Yeah, you're absolutely right.

Ed Daube Ph.D: 5:52

Yeah, because if she's done something and I'm reacting to that, perhaps I'm overreacting, perhaps I'm not reacting strong enough. So that's what you have to take a look at. What is the initial action that led me to disrespect your mother? Where did it come from? Was it my misperception, or was it something that your mother actually said? Because maybe my anger at your mom is justified or maybe it isn't, and that's what needs to be assessed, if that makes sense.

Fatima Bey The MindShifter: 6:25

確實。我問你這個問題，是想讓你更深入地解釋。因為，雖然我知道你說的沒錯，這是一種感知到的威脅，但有時人們會覺得，好吧，我有權利生氣，而他們沒有意識到憤怒中的威脅在哪裡。所以你剛才在我舉的一個小例子中，把這個問題分解了。所以你剛才在我舉的一個小例子中，把這個問題分解了。

Ed Daube Ph.D: 6:45

I gave yes, but, fatima, they do have a right to be angry. Let me explain that Anger is always valid in that it's based on how you perceive your world. It isn't necessarily justified because it may be a misperception, and the actions you take when you're in anger also may not be justified because they may be too extreme, but the anger is always valid.

Fatima Bey《心靈轉換者》：7:11

The anger is valid, but just the piece that I was talking about was the perceived danger. Yes, or the threat rather talking about was the perceived danger.

Ed Daube 博士：7:18

Yes.

Fatima Bey《心靈轉換者》：7:19

Or the threat. Rather, you used the word threat For those who didn't make that connection. I wanted to make sure that they could connect the dots that you were laying out there. Let me ask you this, because you already explained what anger is Are there levels to anger?

Ed Daube 博士：7:36

There are levels to anger. You can be angry or you can be annoyed, which is a lower level of anger, because you're annoyed at a threat. You can be angry at a perceived threat, which means you're ready to go to war, or you can be enraged, which means you're ready to kill somebody, proverbially. So there are different levels to anger.

Fatima Bey《心靈轉換者》：7:58

And I think it's important to point that out, because sometimes people think everything is one thing and it's not. And it's important, if we're dealing with someone who's angry, or angry ourselves, to understand that there are levels and that makes a difference on how we handle it.

Ed Daube Ph.D: 8:14

我正想說。不同層次也有些差別。當你惱怒時，你可以選擇不同的回應方式。當你生氣時，你可以選擇不同的回應方式，對不起。當你暴怒時，你不會思考到做出不同回應的程度。你會採取行動。當你暴怒時，你會失控。

Fatima Bey The MindShifter: 8:40

You're right. You're right. I want you to tell me what you told me off air, the story that you told me off air, which I think demonstrates so many things related to this topic. What did you learn about women and anger?

Ed Daube Ph.D: 8:58

Years ago, when I was writing my book on anger and the book, by the way, for people to be aware of it, it's called Beyond Anger Management Master your Anger as a Strategic Tool is available on Amazon and I wanted to write a chapter on women's anger. So I went on to LinkedIn, to a woman's forum, and I asked specifically. I said look, I'm a man and I want to know what happens when you, as a woman, express anger. Responses was I, as a woman, cannot express anger directly, because if I do, I get labeled a bitch, or I get labeled a feminazi, or I get labeled whatever it happens to be, and it was true for women in a variety of situations.

Ed Daube 博士：9:50

我收到了一位女士的回覆。她擁有一家公司，她說她很難對員工發火，因為他們根本不把她當一回事。我對這些女性的回應是，首先，她們需要認可自己的憤怒，而不是被那些標籤所蒙蔽，比如說「不，你身為女人不能生氣」。順便說一句，問題在於男人不知道如何處理女人的憤怒。這才是問題所在。

Ed Daube Ph.D: 10:21

But having said that, women do not know how to deal with women's anger.

Fatima Bey《心靈轉換者》：10:31

So what they?

Ed Daube Ph.D: 10:31

do is they attempt to marginalize her, devalue her, label her, with the goal of getting her to not express her anger. Because in our society, women are, generally speaking, are trained to be comforters, are trained to be healers, are trained to be people who come in and smooth things over, not directly, to be assertive. That's considered a man's emotion. It isn't, by the way, but that's the way our society looks at it. So what I suggested to women if you're in a situation, as a woman, where you can't express anger directly, because either you're an employee and there may be some consequences to you getting angry, you need to express your anger indirectly. And what I mean by that is this when you validate your anger saying I, as a woman, have a right to be angry, and you do, and there's a real threat here. For example, let's say, a co-worker or a boss is stealing your work and presenting it as his.

Fatima Bey The MindShifter: 11:37

And that happens.

Ed Daube 博士：11:38

如果發生了這種情況，你需要採取專案管理的方法來處理，而且專案管理的方法確實有效。問題是什麼？威脅是什麼？我有什麼應對措施？間接地，然後選擇最佳方案來應對竊取你成果的人帶來的威脅，而不是直接發怒，因為發怒可能會讓你承擔不想要的後果。所以，這樣做可以驗證憤怒，消除威脅，並確保你的安全。

Fatima Bey The MindShifter: 12:12

我喜歡你主動聯繫一群女性，問她們“嘿，什麼事讓你生氣了？”，她們也給出了真實的回應。而且我喜歡你試著理解女性，而不是對我們說教。我喜歡和你聊天的原因之一是你真的在努力理解別人，而不是只是說「我有學位，所以聽我說」。我覺得你很優秀，總的來說，這就是你的心態，也是你處理一切事情的方式。我想問你一個問題：對於那些正在努力控制憤怒，並且知道自己會生氣的人，我們能否阻止自己陷入憤怒的境地？

Ed Daube 博士：12:53

The answer is yes, but it takes practice. And what you want to think about here is learning to ride a bike. When you learn to ride a bike, your dad or mom whatever didn't just put you on a bike, or maybe they did, but you had to learn. I have two grandkids, one's three and one's five, and they just learned how to ride a bike and how to pedal. But it involved falling and involved being uncomfortable and learning how to get the muscle memory, but it's a skill and once you get the skill, it's there. So, when you're learning to deal with anger or any emotion, you're developing a new skill. And the way you do that is this you can take any emotion, whatever it happens to be, whether it's anger or it's anxiety, or it's disgust or whatever it happens to be. When you feel that emotion physically in your body, force yourself to take a deep breath and take a step back from the situation. Now you may say, well, wait a minute, dr Dobby, when I'm happy you want me to take a deep breath and take a step back. Yes, that's exactly what I want you to do, and the reason I want you to do that is because you are training yourself to learn emotional mastery. And emotional mastery says I feel the emotion, I take a step back from the situation, I take a deep breath to calm myself down. When you learn that skill now, when you experience anger and you need to learn where in your body you experience it Some people they feel warmth in their head, some people feel tightening of the muscles you need to learn what your specific physical reaction to anger is. And when you feel that you take a deep breath which calms you down psychologically, you take a step back from the situation, which creates physical safety between you and the other person, and then you can say what's actually going on here, how real is the threat? If the threat is indeed real, then you need to plan what you're going to do to neutralize it. If it's not because you've misperceived, perhaps you say to the person what did you mean by what you said? Or what was going on, what led you to do that? So now you have information, you can say oh, I misunderstood what was happening, so I'm going to let the anger go.

Ed Daube 博士：15:24

I'll give an example, not from anger, but from anxiety. I taught in a college here locally in California and I was leaving work to go to my class and I experienced what I recognize as anxiety. My stomach was churning and so I thought about it. I said wait a minute, what's going on here? My anxiety is telling me there's a potential threat in the future, a maybe threat. So I said is everything okay at home? Yep, is everything okay for my lecture? Yeah, when I decided everything was okay, I chose to ignore the physical sign, which was anxiety. I said I don't know, maybe it's gas or something, I don't know. But that was mastering the anxiety.

Ed Daube Ph.D: 16:15

現在，如果我生氣了，我需要深呼吸，退一步思考，問問自己感知到的威脅是什麼？感知到的威脅是你不尊重我，你實際上不尊重我，因為你可能不尊重我。所以，當我從你那裡得知，你所說的話和你的意思並非真的不尊重我時，我可以說，哦，好吧，我可以冷靜下來，我們可以談談。如果你確實不尊重我，威脅是真實存在的，我需要處理你，問你這是什麼意思？你到底怎麼了？我不喜歡你說的話。這樣說對嗎？

Fatima Bey《心靈轉換者》：17:04

確實如此，所以我所聽到的，我要解釋一下你所說的部分內容，那就是先問問題，而不是去找讓你生氣或發火的人或事。先問問題並確保你所感知的事實是真實的，因為有時我們會誤解別人。我們生氣是因為我們覺得那是不被尊重的，而他們的成長環境與你完全不同，他們不認為那是不尊重，甚至根本沒有想過不尊重你。我見過很多這種情況。我認為這可能是人們在沒有不尊重意圖的情況下感到不尊重的最常見的情況之一。有時是有不尊重的，我認為這是不同的。但我認為首先我們需要評估他們是真的故意不尊重我，還是只是出於不同的想法？

Ed Daube 博士：17:50

Exactly so what you might then do when you ask questions is you might get an apology, as opposed to going to war, and now you're going to get slugged.

Fatima Bey The MindShifter: 18:01

對，確實如此，你會得到不同的結果。你的觀點非常好。

Ed Daube Ph.D: 18:05

Now that segues into this next question Can we have a logical conversation with somebody who is absolutely pissed off in the moment and the quick answer to that is no, and the quick answer to that is no, and the reason for that is if they're enraged, they're not going to be in contact with you, they're not going to be logical, and what you need to do is you need to step back and give them space and give them a chance to calm down. Now, telling them to calm down probably is not going to be very effective.

Fatima Bey The MindShifter: 18:39

它會產生相反的效果。

Ed Daube Ph.D: 18:41

It'll do the opposite. But you're right, you're right. So you back off, give them space and maybe say we'll come back to this later.

Fatima Bey The MindShifter: 18:50

Yes, and this is also true in relationships. It's true with parents and children, it's true with coworkers, it's true in almost every format you could think of. When someone's that enraged, don't try to have a logical conversation because they're not in a logical state of mind. Give them space, let them come back down to earth then try to have a conversation, as basic as that is. People really need to hear that, because I see it all the time. They're trying to have a logical conversation when a person's, you know, ready to explode or just they're just really angry about whatever the topic is, and I'm glad that you pointed that out.

Ed Daube Ph.D: 19:30

Now you can acknowledge their emotion and you can say I can see that you're really upset with me right now and I'm going to validate that, but I'm going to leave at this point. We'll come back to it.

Fatima Bey The MindShifter: 19:44

Do you have any really quick tips for, let's say, we have a high school student that is constantly getting in trouble for bursts of anger at school, because that's a reality for quite a few kids. So what can they do right now?

Ed Daube Ph.D: 20:05

The kid or the person dealing with the kid, the kid, the kid. If you're a kid and your anger is causing you more problems than you want and not solving the issues that you're trying to deal with, than you want and not solving the issues that you're trying to deal with, then you need to take some time to learn what anger is and how to deal with it, and we've talked about that. Now you need to realize that you're getting angry, is isolating you and probably causing you more problems with people in school and your peers and all of that, and your anger isn't working. So you need to step back and say what is it that's pissing me off so much and approach that and attempt to deal with that directly, if that makes sense.

Fatima Bey《心靈轉換者》：20:58

是的，我覺得你說的關鍵是它根本行不通，根本行不通。如果某件事行不通，為什麼還要繼續做？只有瘋子才會一再重複同樣的事情，期望得到同樣的結果。

Ed Daube Ph.D: 21:08

完全正確。

Fatima Bey The MindShifter: 21:10

So I think, while, if you're listening, and you do have an issue with anger, while you're in a calm, logical state right now, assess, assess exactly what he just said. What makes you so angry when you're in the classroom and somebody says something? Is it because you feel disrespected? Deal with the core issue of what's making you angry, because then you can get over it instead of staying under it and move on to something else.

Ed Daube Ph.D: 21:38

Right, fatima, let me clarify that a bit for you, because when you say what makes you angry, that's a myth, and most people believe that something outside of themselves is what's causing their anger, and it isn't. What's causing the anger is their perception of threat. So, instead of asking what's making me angry, what is the threat that I perceive going on that I'm getting angry at? And the reason why I clarify that is because it puts the responsibility for the anger back on the teen. Good point, very good point.

Ed Daube Ph.D: 22:16

It's their perception of what's going on, which may or may not be accurate, and that's where the assessment comes in. I have a right, as a teen, to get angry, but I also have the responsibility of taking a look at my perceived threat and whether or not it's real, and then I have the responsibility of saying the action I've chosen to take. Are they dealing with a threat or not? Are they making it worse?

Fatima Bey《心靈轉換者》：22:42

Very, very good point. Now, Dr Dobby, tell them what else you do and how people can find you.

Ed Daube Ph.D: 22:50

嗯，這是最好的方法。退休後，我實際上沒做什麼，除了上播客，努力幫助人們處理情緒問題。最好的方法是訪問我的部落格emotionsdoctor.com，裡面有各種關於情緒的資訊。你可以訪問網站，下拉索引標籤，點擊你想了解的特定情緒的資訊。另一個方法是去亞馬遜看看我那本專門關於憤怒的書。這本書有很多有用的信息，有有聲書，也有實體書，都在亞馬遜上出售。再說一次，這本書的名字叫《超越憤怒管理：將憤怒當作策略工具》，在亞馬遜上有販售。

Fatima Bey The MindShifter: 23:46

好的，Dalby博士，感謝您接受我們的採訪，希望這期節目能為那些真正需要培養平衡花園的人帶來一些思考。再次感謝您。

Ed Daube 博士：24:02

謝謝你們的邀請。希望這次採訪有效。

Fatima Bey The MindShifter: 24:05

And now for a mind shifting moment For everyone listening out there. If today's episode was about you I'm talking to you right now, while you're in a calm and logical state I want you to go back and listen again to this entire episode and begin to implement some of the things that Dr Dalby talked about, because when you're angry, you're not going to be logical and you're not going to. You'll just be in your feelings. But the truth is, if you really want to start solving the problems of getting the results and after effects of your bursts of anger, you really want to stop. If that's, you, go back and listen to this episode again and begin to implement everything that he said, because you can overcome it, instead of staying worldwide platforms, so you, too, can be a part of the conversation that's changing young lives everywhere, and always remember there's power in shifting your thinking.