Fatima Bey: 0:10

Welcome to MindShift Power Podcast, the world's only podcast built to empower the next generation. I'm your host, fatima Bey the MindShifter, because shaping tomorrow's world starts with conversations we have today. Because shaping tomorrow's world starts with conversations we have today. And hello everyone. Today we have with us Kate Holohan. She is from Southeast England in the UK. She is the owner of Hair Therapy UK and she is a trichologist. How are you doing today, kate? I'm good. Thank you, nice to see you. Nice to see you too. I'm glad to have you here. So I like to dive right in. So tell us what is trichology?

Kate Holohan: 0:50

So trichology is all around the science and the functions of the hair and scalp. So as a trichologist I can help people with hair loss, hair and scalp problems, issues like psoriasis, so basically that bit more than your average hairdresser or anyone like that. So we have a lot of trichologists in the UK. You may find in the US that the dermatologists might cover a lot more hair loss issues and hair and scalp. Oh okay, but it's specifically in the UK. Is hair and scalp specialist?

法蒂瑪先生：1:30

I like that. It's a very niche. It's a very niche area of. Is it considered cosmetology in the UK?

Kate Holohan: 1:39

So it's not quite medical, but it's certainly more than if you were hairdressing. So it's kind of in between. So I like to see it as that bridge in that gap between cosmetology and medical.

法蒂瑪先生：1:57

Okay, so I want to understand trichology a little bit more. It's the study of this hair and scalp. Why is this even necessary?

Kate Holohan: 2:07

說實話，這真的令人驚訝。我從事美髮業已經25年了，好吧，我從事教育行業也有20年了。我自己也是大約四年前才知道毛髮學這個職業的，哇，我自己也是大約四年前才知道的。所以我甚至不知道有專門的頭髮和頭皮專家可以推薦給別人，幫助他們解決掉髮和頭髮健康等問題。在英國，我們有NHS（國民醫療服務體系），我們確實能在不同的健康問題上得到一定程度的幫助。脫髮被認為是美容問題，所以我們在禿髮之類的問題上幾乎得不到任何幫助。

Kate Holohan: 2:52

On our health system and so it's very difficult. If you go and see a GP, they often just tell you oh, it's just stress, it will go away on its own, or I'll use Rogaine or Regaine or some kind of chemical and that will kind of fix it. There's not really anyone apart from a trichologist that can give you an accurate diagnosis and they can give you help and they can give you an ongoing kind of treatment plan. And often, especially for people with conditions like psoriasis or eczema, you can get really, really severe to the point where they've got tons of scaling on their scalp and that can restrict hair growth. It can be really, really difficult for people. It can affect their mental health.

Kate Holohan: 3:44

It can affect their everyday day-to-day life and there's not really any kind of other help. So as a trichologist, I can support both GPs and doctors, and also hairdressers, in helping those people find the answers that they need.

Fatima Bey: 4:02

Just as an FYI for those listening who don't know GP is general practitioner.

凱特霍洛漢：4:06

Yeah, so doctor, basically.

Fatima Bey: 4:08

是的，基本上就是「癌症」的另一種說法。你們也幫助癌症患者嗎？

凱特霍洛漢：4:12

Yeah, I can do. Yeah, so I've also trained in how to cut and fit wigs so I can advise people on things like the type of wig that they might get and where to source that from, the type of wig that they might get and where to source that from, and then I can help just to shape them in, cut them, make them look a little bit more like they used to look. So anyone that's facing cancer treatment or chemotherapy, I can help them with that, advise them on things like using a cold cap, perhaps to help preserve their hair if they're looking to have chemotherapy done, and I can help them before, kind of during and after, their journey.

Fatima Bey: 4:53

So why did you get into once you discovered that trichology exists? Why you got into it? Because you found it interesting, obviously, but why do you keep doing it? Why do you like what you do?

Kate Holohan: 5:13

So I think that there's quite a point in a lot of hairdressers' lives where when you first learn hairdressing, you're so kind of caught up on it's like when you learn to drive you can't really focus on driving because you're like, oh, what gear am I in? You know, am I indicating or have I got my hazard lights on? Who's that person over there? You're so focused on what you're doing. And it's the same with hair. When you first learn hair, just learning how to cut and colour hair and how to talk to people and how to understand what they really want and how to make people happy is quite a lot to deal with. But for those that have been in the industry for quite a while, I know I certainly got to that point where I would see clients come in, you know every week with hair loss and bald patches, scalp conditions, hair conditions and not really have the answers for them.

Kate Holohan: 6:03

I couldn't really help them and I didn't even myself really know how much I didn't know. So when we learn hair, we get to talk very little about the hair and scalp, considering it's what we work with every day. And after studying hair and scalp exclusively with the Institute of Trichology in London for two and a half years, I learned how much I really didn't know, oh wow. So when you become a trichologist you don't have to have any background in hair whatsoever. Some of the people in my class had a physics degree or they had completely different backgrounds or they had suffered hair loss themselves. They had completely different backgrounds or they had suffered hair loss themselves and that had given them an interest in hair loss and then spurred them on to want to help people themselves.

Kate Holohan: 6:52

But for me it was getting to that point in my career in hairdressing where I was seeing it all the time and I didn't really have the answers and I wanted to know more. I'm kind of like a perpetual student, so I never know enough. I always want to know more, learn more, and it was really really interesting so what I've been able to do over the last few years and the impact that I've been able to have on people's lives by being able to help them is just a complete another level. So hairdressing can be really rewarding in itself and education can be really rewarding when you're helping those people gain that confidence, learn more and grow. But to be able to help people with things that literally can affect their life day to day, their mental health- you know, it's just another level for me, so it's really rewarding.

Fatima Bey: 7:50

I think a lot of people. I just want to kind of reiterate what you were just talking about with the mental health piece, because I think a lot of people don't think about how physical ailments or what might seem cosmetic can dramatically affect someone's life. If you won't go to parties because you know you're starting to look bald-headed and you, okay, some people throw wigs on but maybe you don't want to wear a wig, or maybe you can't wear a wig because it bothers your skin. I mean, that's a thing too. So you know, people don't really think about the fact that you might not want to get intimate because you'll have to take your wig off and he's going to see how bald you are. Things like that they can affect your life. They can really stop you from doing things that you really should be doing.

Kate Holohan: 8:34

我和很多人聊過。有些病人告訴我，她們的丈夫甚至從未見過她們的禿頭。她們的丈夫、家人，都沒有跟任何人說過她們掉髮的程度。你知道，這真的會讓人感到很孤獨，但這甚至不是什麼大問題。我遇到的一位病人，受頭髮問題影響最嚴重，她只是有點頭皮屑，但她告訴我，如果她去年12月沒能去做頭皮護理來清除頭皮屑，她就去不了聖誕派對了，因為她太在意頭髮上的頭皮屑了。

Fatima Bey: 9:15

是的，我覺得這很重要。這是一種無法言說、默默承受的痛苦。我努力想一個更貼切的詞，但目前我能想到的只有這些。我認為這是人們共同承受的痛苦。當然還有其他痛苦，但人們總是默默承受，因為他們羞於啟齒。所以我很高興你能幫助他們，也很高興人們能坦然地來找你。那麼，你今天為什麼想來參加這個節目，談論這個主題呢？這到底跟青少年有什麼關係呢？

Kate Holohan: 9:45

我真的很喜歡和年輕人交流，尤其是在不同教育領域，尤其是美髮行業。我剛開始從事美髮事業的時候，跟我一起上課的很多人被告知，『你不太聰明，去做美髮吧』。而我卻真的遇到了這種情況。我的意思是，這顯然很具侮辱性，但我也發現事實並非如此。我在英國也常做這樣的演講，因為我們在肯特郡，有所謂的文法學校，也就是所謂的精英學校。你必須參加考試才能上這些學校，所以他們被期望在學業上取得好成績。就我個人而言，我在學校的時候就走的是這條路。我被告知，這是你預期的道路。你去參加A-level考試，然後上大學，最後找到一份稱心如意的工作。

凱特霍洛漢：10:49

I actually ended up moving out of home when I was 17 and I had to work to support myself and I tried to stay to finish my qualifications. But I found that trying to work earn a living. But I found that trying to work, earn a living, live on my own, support myself and complete a full time academic course was just way too much for me. So in my second year of A-levels I actually ended up leaving and I was very determined that if I was going to leave my course, that I was going to go and study a trade and I was going to go and do something that could add value to my life long term, rather than just I wasn't going to just leave and go and work in a supermarket or something like that. So I and I was very creative and I was doing art anyway for A-level. So I was really creative and I always loved that kind of thing and I never wanted to sit in an office. I knew that I would be bored to tears if I was sat in a desk job all day at a computer, just kind of working away. And so for me to be able to do something really creative, but also something that really dynamic, that was different every day as soon as I got a job in a salon, I absolutely loved it and it was so fun and I felt that I'd almost kind of fell into it by accident because as an academically promising student those kind of opportunities weren't offered to me. They were only offered to the students that looked like they weren't capable of doing what's seen as a higher qualification.

Kate Holohan: 12:27

Now I have still, over the years, gained the same level of qualification. So I've earned certificate in education teaching degree, and I've also earned my level five trichology qualification as well. So I'm almost kind of qualified to degree level. But I follow my own path and I did it in a different way and I did it in a way that I enjoyed a lot more and that suited me a lot more. And yet I'm still highly qualified, and so I think it's really important to just to kind of open those avenues to people. So if you're interested in something, I think it's really unfair to kind of say oh well, academic qualifications are for the cleverer, more able students and vocational qualifications or practical qualifications are for those that are not very bright or for those that are not capable academically. Okay, over the years I've been in education in many different fields. I've worked in colleges, I've taught mature students, I've taught young students. I a hairdresser and also as a trichology clinic owner. I have to have a multifaceted approach. I am my own accountant. I'm my own PR.

Kate Holohan: 14:03

I am my own marketing company. I also run a podcast. I host that. I produce it. I've sourced my own guests a podcast I host that. I produce it. I've sourced my own guests. I do my own accounts.

法蒂瑪先生：14:14

That sounds familiar.

Kate Holohan: 14:14

I do my own ordering, I do my own stock. You know, you tell me someone who's got a degree and gone and worked in an office who has to know that much about all those different elements of business. If anything, I have to be smarter than those people.

Kate Holohan: 14:32

So I think it's really unfair to kind of pigeonhole people and say to them that just because they may be academically gifted or they may be good at maths or English, that a vocational qualification or learning a trade should be something that they shouldn't be interested in or that is seen as less than. I think that's really unfair.

法蒂瑪先生：14:54

我完全同意。在美國，聽起來英國的情況也一樣，我們的年輕人經常被推向並非總是適合他們的特定職業道路，有時像你說的職業，或者你理解的貿易，被認為不太合適。但事實是，我在錄製之前就跟你說過，有時候這樣做很愚蠢。舉個例子，一個汽車修理工畢業後可能賺不到7.5萬美元。另一種工程師，因為汽車修理工也屬於工程專業。所以另一種工程師可能賺10萬美元。兩者之間的差異在於，汽車修理工每年可能比另一位工程師少賺2.5萬美元，但另一位工程師每年要償還超過2.5萬美元的貸款。那麼，究竟是誰在賺錢呢？很多時候，我們逼著孩子選擇職業，是因為我們認為他們是最有前途的。但我們必須放眼大局，不能只看你的身分象徵，而那些身分象徵往往都是謊言。它們真的，真的。

Kate Holohan: 16:05

The thing is like you said.

Kate Holohan: 16:06

你知道嗎，我本來可以上大學，但最後卻背負著一大筆學生貸款，因為我從事的是美髮業，後來我想從事教育行業。在美髮沙龍工作，很多時候大家會非常支持，就像一個大家庭，你會收徒弟，你會支持他們，培養他們，也會教他們。所以，我剛開始從事教育行業的時候，伊凡在一所大學工作。他們資助我，並支付我獲得教師資格的費用。就這樣，我又一次獲得了資格證書。我不用為此付出任何代價，更不用說償還貸款、利息等等了。所以，以這種方式學習對我來說真的很有益。

Kate Holohan: 16:54

如果我當時上大學學習當老師，現在可能還在償還。但因為我進入了一個支持我、支持我在其整體文化理念下成長的組織，他們才出錢讓我這麼做，作為「正義」的一部分。我覺得有時候你最終還是會走上類似的道路，但任何事情都有不只一種正確的方法，是的，是的，當然。

Kate Holohan: 17:26

if someone's really creative and they're not very academic and they don't like schoolwork, then of course something like hairdressing might be really enjoyable for them and it might be really fun. Hairdressing and cosmetology is one of those industries where you can't do it unless you love it, right.

Fatima Bey: 17:45

And they are very, very happy.

Kate Holohan: 17:47

Hairdressing is one of the industries with the highest job satisfaction Because we have to love it.

凱特·霍洛漢：17:54

You know you can't go into a salon in the morning and say to your client oh, do you mind if I just pretend to do your hair this morning? I'm not really feeling it today. Can I just sit there and just push a couple of buttons and just not. You know I'm not going to talk to you because I don't really feel like it. Good point, I'm tired today, so can I just do 50%.

Kate Holohan: 18:14

You know we have to be on all the time, we have to be upbeat, we have to be positive. So again, that takes a lot. You know, personally and professionally, it actually takes a lot. We have to be very consistent, we have to be very reliable. You can't phone in sick all the time if you're a hairdresser, because you'll end up with no clients. You cancel on those clients more than once and they won't come back. So there's a lot to it that people, I think, forget. But of course, for someone who's more creatively minded, they could love it it. But I just think it is a really great career. But if you are an intelligent person and you're driven and you're motivated, they're the kind of people that can really take it to another level.

Fatima Bey: 19:05

對，例如創業，就像你提到的。我們想進入哪個領域，有很多不同的方法。我們想進入哪個領域，有很多不同的方法。大約有一百種不同的方法，我很高興你提到了這一點。所以你已經列舉了一些。我想問你，你已經列舉了一些，但年輕人應該進入這個領域的其他原因還有哪些呢？

Kate Holohan: 19:28

So, like I said, with trichology, I do feel that having a background in hairdressing can be a real advantage. And it's quite funny because I know other students who study trichology who came from a hairdressing background and they almost felt intimidated by the students that were there with physics degrees and that were professors or medically trained doctors. They felt quite intimidated but although those people did very well on their exams, when it came to actually practically treating the patients which is basically the job once you finish we had the advantage and I actually felt that my background and my experience counted for a lot and it gave me a really strong advantage. And one of the girls on my course who had a physics degree was actually petrified to even touch someone's head, you know, because she'd never done it, whereas I was really confident and I could engage with people and connect with them. So trichology is a very niche subject. There's not a lot of trichologists around, but it is a great area to get into. You can really really help people and make a massive impact on their lives.

凱特霍洛漢：20:46

But it's the same with hair as well. It's such a fun, interesting job to get into that it is a really, really good kind of avenue to go for a career, but there's so many ways that you can expand in that. So, especially within hair loss, you can go into wigs and hair systems. I know people that do wigs for TV shows. You know even things like all the period dramas and stuff some quite big, big things. You know even things like Game of Thrones. The wigs on those are epic.

Kate Holohan: 21:22

That's extremely kind of niche, and imagine having that as your job, working for nine months on Game of Thrones. So there's many different ways that you can do it. You can be an entrepreneur, you can be self-employed, you can be employed, you can teach. There's so many different avenues you can go down and there's so much more than just what we would say is just a hairdresser. Right, that's why I love the career as a whole. But we also need to remind ourselves that, obviously, hair loss since covid has been more prevalent. It's been far more talked about. It's extremely common. It's more common than we might think and, as we've already said, it can have a huge impact on people's lives and it is something that a lot of people want to do something about. So becoming a hair loss specialist it's a really good field to get into.

法蒂瑪先生：22:19

I love a lot of what you just said. So if there's a youth listening right now who is in the UK, how could they get into trichology? Would they just go to learn to be a hairdresser first and then take it secondarily, or can they go straight to trichology?

凱特霍洛漢：22:36

I think it really depends on where they want to come from. So, like I said, having a background in hair is great, but some people get an interest from elsewhere. So it may be they're suffering from hair loss themselves. They may have a friend or family member that had hair loss and they witnessed the kind of support they were getting. I was contacted by a patient recently who has very severe alopecia and she struggled to get a diagnosis and she struggled to get help and she paid a couple of so-called hair loss experts that weren't actually certified, qualified trichologists and she found that she was just paying money and not really getting any answers. So once she met me she actually got a lot more answers and a lot more actual help. She is now interested in studying trichology because that's piqued her interest. So I would definitely say that it's a really good idea to find a certified doctor. You know proper avenue.

Kate Holohan: 23:44

我自己在哈利街的毛髮學研究所學習過，他們真的很棒。他們的教育水準很高。但如果你對毛髮有興趣，你完全不需要有任何背景知識。他們課程的第一部分是六個月的入門課程，你可以先學一下，看看感覺如何，不必馬上報名三年的課程。哦，我喜歡這個。

Kate Holohan: 24:10

You can do the introduction, get a feel for the course, find out whether it is something that you really are interested in and that you feel that you like the level of work.

Kate Holohan: 24:22

You can stop there if you feel that you've learned enough or you don't like it, or you can then go on and do kind of year one, year two, year, three, so it can be quite flexible. I offer a one day course online which is aimed at mainly hairdressers to give them a bit more of an insight into hair loss and scalp health, give them a bit more confidence around talking to clients. So there are more short courses that you can do as well and smaller bits. And again, the introduction to trichology could be quite good for people that are already in the hair industry, that are thinking about getting into more hair loss. But it's just I mean, like I say, I didn't know until I started the course how much I didn't know about the hair and scalp. So if you like learning and you like kind of biology and scientific element, then I think you would really enjoy it Great.

Fatima Bey: 25:23

So tell us what are the full services that you offer and how can people find you?

Kate Holohan: 25:31

正如我所說，我確實提供教育。因此，我開設了線上和線下課程，在一天的時間裡，我們會討論最常見的脫髮、頭髮狀況和頭皮狀況，作為美容師或美髮師，您可能在沙龍中遇到這些問題，如何識別它們，如何與客戶打交道。因為我們通常不與客戶談論脫髮，因為我們缺乏信心或相關知識。所以我們想，哦，我們最好什麼都不要說，因為我們真的不知道該說些什麼。所以我提供這方面的課程。在診所，我會進行全面的臨床諮詢，我可以透過 Zoom 進行。顯然，我更喜歡面對面進行，這樣我可以看到頭皮，觸摸頭皮，並製定正確的診斷治療計劃。

Kate Holohan: 26:25

I offer hair loss treatments, scalp treatments. So if someone's got a huge amount of scale on their scalp, you'd be amazed at how much I can clear in just one session. It is literally. And it's so satisfying as well because the before and afters is really great. So I do hair loss treatments, scalp treatments. I've got a signature scalp facial treatment which is more of like a pampering it's almost like a facial but for your hair and scalp. So that's amazing I and then I obviously still have clients. I've got clients. I've been doing the hair for 25 years that literally will not let me leave them, so I do a certain amount of hair myself as well, and I've also been. This year. I've been really honored to have quite a few guest speaking roles as well, so I'm going to be speaking at the World Trichology Conference in New York.

Fatima Bey: 27:22

哦，恭喜你，太棒了。

Kate Holohan: 27:25

So I'm really excited about that.

Fatima Bey: 27:27

Are're gonna put? Are you gonna put that on your website? Um, I should do, yeah, okay now that, now that I made you say it publicly, you have to put on your website yes, it's on my instagram, um, because that's easier, I tend to do that.

Kate Holohan: 27:41

But yes, I should be putting my public speaking on my website. But I've done two kind of. I did a networking event where I hosted and I was speaking, and then I've just done. In Kent we have a wellness festival which lasts the whole weekend, so I did a talk there as well on how to achieve optimum hair and scalp health.

法蒂瑪先生：28:03

Nice, so that was really fun.

Kate Holohan: 28:04

能夠與人交流，分享一些技巧和訣竅之類的真是太好了。我也喜歡幫助別人，喜歡引導人們走上正軌，並對他們進行教育。所以我的Instagram帳號一直都在，像是我的主要帳號。當然，我也有自己的網站，但我總是歡迎大家給我發訊息，問我一些隨機的問題。

法蒂瑪先生：28:30

我能感受到你的熱情，當你說你喜歡幫助別人時，我相信你。我想我們都能感受到這一點。對於那些正在收聽節目、我認識的、與年輕人一起工作的人，我想成年人可能會驚訝於我如此頻繁地聽到年輕人問我關於未來職業「你想做什麼？」的問題。他們中的許多人都心懷同情，想要做一些有意義的事情。當然，他們不是想賺錢，但他們中的許多人想做的不僅僅是賺錢，而是更有意義的事情。所以我能理解，當你讓人們感覺更好時，你所做的事情是有意義的，因為你影響了他們的心理健康，尤其是癌症患者。你知道，這句話說到我心坎上了。但在我們結束之前，我希望你和全世界的年輕人談談，給他們一些你想要的建議。

Kate Holohan: 29:20

I think the other thing is to just remember that you don't have to pigeonhole yourself. So if my career is evolved, I retrained in trichology.

Fatima Bey: 29:31

I was.

凱特霍洛漢：29:31

我認為是42條。所以，即使你確定了一條路，心裡想著，好吧，現在就這樣了，這就是我要做的，也不要拒絕其他機會或新的途徑，也不要擔心事情會改變。當然，如果你選擇了某件事，但實際上去做了之後，覺得它並不適合我，我並沒有像想像中那麼享受它，或者我想走另一條路，也不要擔心。我覺得，尤其是在現在，我們擁有這麼多的資訊、這麼多的教育和這麼多的連結。我的意思是，看看我和你在世界各地的對話。是的，你知道，你真的做不到。不要限制自己，想著，哦，好吧，我只能做到這個，或者我現在才開始做這件事，所以我只能堅持下去。要對新的機會保持開放的心態。

Fatima Bey: 30:24

My favorite thing to do is just say yes and then figure out how to do it later I agree, try different careers, um, if you're not sure, go into the one you think you're going to like the most, and it is okay if you switch it up. A lot of people do that for some reason. I find that a lot to be true, a lot with chefs. Either people are a chef for a while and they switch to something completely different, or they were a nurse or a doctor and then became a chef. I don't know what it is about my career.

凱特霍洛漢：30:53

你知道，我剛開始做美髮的時候，就覺得這是一門手藝，所以我學到的東西很有用。但同時，如果我不喜歡，我的態度是，即使我省的錢只是給家人理髮，我也省了給老公和孩子理髮的錢。這對我來說仍然是一種勝利。廚師也是如此。我的意思是，一旦你學會了烹飪，你就掌握了這項技能，即使你不再是廚師了。你知道，你學到的東西會伴隨你一生，即使它只是意味著你可以為客人做美味的開胃小菜，你知道，所以你的教育永遠不會被浪費，即使你沒有意識到你在使用它。

法蒂瑪先生：31:38

我認為這也許是你一生中說過的最有價值的話之一。教育依然寶貴。你只需要重新運用它，而我認為很多時候人們並沒有意識到這一點。凱特，和你談話真是太棒了，我希望各位聽眾從這次談話中獲益良多。我認為收穫頗豐。我認為如果你願意的話，這次談話本來可以有很多收穫。再次感謝你的到來。

Kate Holohan: 32:03

Thank you.

Fatima Bey: 32:05

And now for a mind shifting moment, I want you to recollect what was spoken about today. Kate brought out a lot of really good points, but they go far beyond trichology. Have you accepted or are you accepting what you've been told? Are your limits? Are you only going after what is presented before you? Whether you're a teenager or young adult anywhere in the world, or an adult who's already working or in a career, this applies to you. Are you really doing what you want to do or are you just accepting what you think you have to do? There are many, many, many, many different pathways to whatever it is you're interested in. You don't have to do just one thing.

Fatima Bey: 33:00

If you take nothing else away from this conversation, I want you to know that the freedom you want you actually have. You just have to go for it. Thank you for listening. Be sure to follow and subscribe to MindShift Power Podcast on any of our worldwide platforms and be a part of the conversations shaping tomorrow's world. This podcast is just one branch of the MindShift universe. Explore more at FatimaBaycom and always remember there's power in shifting your thinking. See you next week.