Fatima Bey: 0:04

This is MindShift Power Podcast, the number one critically acclaimed podcast where we have raw, unfiltered conversations that shape tomorrow. I'm your host, fatima Bey the MindShifter, and welcome everyone. Today we have with us Shereen Yazdian, and she is out of London, england, in the UK. She is 24. She is working on her master's in psychology and she's an award-winning speaker and advocate, and she herself is neurodivergent. How are you doing today, shireen?

Shirin Yazdian: 0:43

Hello, I'm good, thank you. Thank you for having me.

Fatima Bey: 0:47

And thank you for coming on. I'm looking forward to this conversation. So I, as in my usual Fatima form, I like to dive right in. So tell us for those out there listening who don't really know. This word is thrown around a lot, but I'm not sure everybody knows what it means. What is a neurodivergent person?

Shirin Yazdian: 1:05

So anyone that diverges sorry, let me start again. Everyone has, you know, everyone works, everyone's. Okay, let me do that again. Everyone's brain works differently and, based on an average of majority of people, we've decided what is neurotypical. We've decided what is majority of people's way of thinking and way of being. Whoever doesn't fit into that narrative is neurodivergent and is diverging from a neuro-normativity, from something that, as a society, we've decided that is our normal normativity, from something that, as a society, we've decided that is our normal. So that can be ADHD, autism, dyslexia, dyspraxia, tics, tourette's. Some people who are OCD identify as neurodivergent. It's a very inclusive word and you know, essentially it comes from neurodiversity party game that says, just like we don't have a correct or normal culture, language, sexuality, we also don't have a correct or normal neurotype.

Fatima Bey: 2:15

Okay. So, and I ask that because neurodivergent, like I said, a term that gets thrown around a lot, but every time I ask it it I get a different answer. They do summarize down to the same thing, but I like, uh, I like for people to hear it differently. So what? What makes you neurodivergent?

Shirin Yazdian: 2:36

so I'm ADHD, dyslexic, and recently I've been thinking that I'm also possibly autistic, and that's something I'm exploring for myself.

Fatima Bey: 2:54

Yeah, I think that I just want to comment on the autism part. The more I talk to neurodivergent people and those who work with neurodivergence in the field, the more I'm recognizing, I think, that a lot of people are walking around undiagnosed with different neurodivergent diagnosis. I have met people who found out later in life that they're actually autistic. I've seen people who recognize as adults that their parents are autistic and just were never diagnosed. I think that that's what do you think about that?

Shirin Yazdian: 3:27

um, I think that that's. What do you think about that? So I think actually, um, we know very little about autism, adhd, dyslexia, um, because of the research, because of you know the poor research that we did beforehand. You know that was, you know the case for everything, not just um neurodiversity, um, and also, you know medical racism, so we mostly studied. You know medical racism, so we mostly studied. You know everything in boys and men, typically white men, and we excluded everyone else in our experiments, in our studies.

Shirin Yazdian: 3:53

So you know, I do psychology, so I'm really also interested in research aspects of stuff, and I think that's one of the main reasons because now we're catching up. So our research is recognizing that lots of autistic people are also non-binary. Lots of autistic people, a lot of more autistic people exist than we originally knew. But there's also something else about autism is that up until very recently there were quite a few different diagnosis with different names, different um characteria, but recently they're all combined into an autism diagnosis. So before you know, there was asperger's, there was autism, but now they both go under the same category in dsm-5 yes, and that's something that I'm finding.

Fatima Bey: 4:40

the more I learn, the more I I recognized that this landscape for I would call it the neurodivergent landscape is rapidly changing, but primarily changing because you don't know until you know, and studying neurodivergence is something that's a little bit newer in terms of human history. So when did you first realize that you were different?

Shirin Yazdian: 5:03

So I think it took me, it took me very long to realize that, even after I had a diagnosis. But so my parents first realized that, my mom first realized that I'm ADHD, and I think I was around eight. She's a doctor, so you know she picked it up, yeah, so I was in Iran in you know, 2009, a 2009, a time where, you know, girls couldn't be autistic, couldn't be ADHD, um, and she really fought for a diagnosis for me, oh, wow, um, but I didn't really identify with it when I got it. You know, like it was more like I was just struggling at school. I was not good at maths, maybe, and that's what it what it was, and yeah it was.

Shirin Yazdian: 5:46

You know there was quite a lot of shame with that Quite. You know, like I felt broken, you know, I remember. I remember the day that I got the diagnosis and I remember, you know, hearing the words. You know, attention deficit, hyperactivity disorder. That doesn't sound really fun to a nine year old to be told you're different and not in a good way, in a way that you know you will need medication. And there's also quite a lot of shame with, you know, taking medication, kind of needing to fix something you know, like we take medication, that is our perception that you take it, so you get rid of stuff. You know you get rid of sickness by taking medication and you know, unconsciously, that was the narrative that was put on me. I don't think that was you know something that people chose to you know give me, but that is how I learned about it and it was quite you know negative. I actually never told anyone.

Fatima Bey: 6:42

I never told people I'm ADHD, until nine years after wow, how did it affect you when you first find out? Like did it affect your friendships? How did it affect schooling?

Shirin Yazdian: 6:57

so I think the main thing was I realized there was a reason and it wasn't my fault okay um.

Shirin Yazdian: 7:04

So you know, like putting putting stuff in perspective, um, I was not doing as well as I was expected to do because, if you know the way people thought, um, my iq is in school, um, but I do think, you know, iranian standards of education are quite high. So, you know, if I was getting 17, that was a bad grade, but 17 out of 20 is not a bad grade, um. Or you know, if I was getting 16 out of 20, that was like really bad. I would get lower than that as well. Not saying I wasn't, but you know, that was quite disappointing in the culture, um, and it did make me feel, you know, broken. It did make me feel like I'm not good enough. So at the time I only thought it's an education-related thing and I didn't really reflect on it in kind of like context of everything else.

Shirin Yazdian: 7:57

It was definitely something I wanted to get rid of. I was told that I'll grow out of it and I really, you know, I really hold on to that. I was told that multiple'll grow out of it and I really, you know, I really hold on to that. I was told that multiple times by multiple psychiatrists and multiple psychologists that this is a childhood thing and you'll grow out of it and I was waiting for it. I was excited to grow out of it because of all the challenges that comes with it and you know, especially different environments, different times. You know we knew very little about ADHD in 2009 from like research perspective, from like society perspective. It was always, you know, the narrative of young boys not being able to sit down in classroom. But I was able to sit down in classroom. Was I paying attention? Not, really Not. You know again, not consciously, I was. I was really trying, like I remember getting headaches because I wanted to, because I wanted to listen.

Shirin Yazdian: 8:52

And you know, like, yeah, like that is quite distressing for a 10 year old to, you know, want to do something because everyone else is doing it, because it's expected of you, and not being able to do it. So, yeah, I went through different phases of identifying with it. In teenage years it kind of changed into a superhero narrative How's that? So, you know, only focusing on cool stuff that comes with ADHD, because there are lots of cool things that comes with ADHD. You know, I can talk for hours and I can get super excited about a topic that is fun. You know my brain does get lots of dopamine by talking about things I'm excited about. And something else that I really hold on to at the time was hyper focus, so the ability to focus on one task, one thing, for hours and hours without getting tired task one thing for hours and hours without getting tired.

Shirin Yazdian: 9:50

Uh, yeah, you guys can do that and that was powerful. You know like I could do a lot of stuff in that time, um, but you know, there there are quite some negative aspects of it that I wasn't paying attention to back then. But to stick with the nor to speak, you know, to stick with the superhero phase, I still didn't tell people. I was very focused on positive aspects of it, but I still didn't tell people, because superheroes don't tell people that they're superheroes.

Fatima Bey: 10:16

So you grew up in Iran. When did you leave?

Shirin Yazdian: 10:20

Yes, so I left in 2018. I was 18. My parents still live there.

Fatima Bey: 10:26

And where did you go?

Shirin Yazdian: 10:29

So I went to a boarding school in Switzerland, in the middle of nowhere, right in the middle of Switzerland, on a very cool ski slope and ski resort, with my brother, with my younger brother. He resorted with my brother, with my younger brother and, yeah, it was, you know, a progressive school alternative. Definitely the way my brain worked was, you know, to be in that school to get that type of education. How did you get there? Um, um, so it was my mom again. Um, so, funny story, I didn't know about the concept of gap year. I didn't know you can just take a year out, and that wasn't something we knew. And um, yeah, like I was doing entrance exam for universities in iran, I was not doing really well emotionally. Um, you know, like you don't get any kind of accommodation in iran and the exam is quite big.

Shirin Yazdian: 11:23

It's a four-hour exam, or it used to be a four-hour exam, hundred of multiple choice questions um that covered four years of education or three years of education.

Fatima Bey: 11:35

Yeah, that's a lot.

Shirin Yazdian: 11:36

That was, that was a lot, I know. It's a lot for everyone, you know, regardless of their neurotype. But to add in a little bit of dyslexia, to add in a little bit of adhd, um that just makes it harder. Yeah, um, and I was really struggling with that, you know, really struggling with, I was feeling quite depressed, very anxious because of, you know, all the pressure of like wanting to do well, getting into a good school, um, and, as I said before, like in iranian communities, we do have like very high standards for education for everyone, regardless of gender. Um, I think, even right now, majority of um university students, like stem university students, are women.

Shirin Yazdian: 12:15

Um, but you know, there's quite a lot of pressure into getting into a good course, um, my mom's a doctor, so there was, you's, quite a lot of pressure into getting into a good course. My mom's a doctor, so there was, you know, quite a lot of societal expectation of me studying medicine. But, yeah, I sat down once with my mom. My mom sat me down and she was like I don't think this is working and we should do something else, we should find something else. And because I didn't know what I wanted to do for university, because, you know, my entire education was medicine, medicine, medicine.

Shirin Yazdian: 12:44

At the time I couldn't decide if I wanted to do it or if society wanted me to do it. And I'm super lucky to have, you know, parents like I do. They're very understanding, very open minded and they were like, yeah, why let's try college, college, let's look into college, and you don't need to go to university right now. And when she was doing some research, um, she remembered that when we were in switzerland together a year before, it was a very safe environment to be in and she was like let's look into switzerland. And when we're looking into colleges in switzerland, we were like, oh, we can do, um, high school if you don't need to do college and you have more time to figure out what you want to do.

Shirin Yazdian: 13:24

So, yeah, without knowing that you know the concept of gap year, we kind of created a gap year that later turned into two gap years, two years and yeah, after that I came to London, to Brighton, actually to do my undergrad in psychology.

Fatima Bey: 13:39

That's very interesting. Well, first of all, it sounds like you had really good parents. I wish everybody had parents who were like yours and really tried to go out of their way and do the difficult thing, and there are parents that do, but I see parents that don't. So I'm glad that you had parents that do, and so so now you're in London and now you are doing your undergrad at a school there. So you used you said that you had issues with self-esteem, for very obvious reasons. How do you feel about yourself now?

Shirin Yazdian: 14:16

Usually, most of the time, pretty good Not always, but I'm really passionate about neurodiversity and you know, as I said, with my type of brain I can get super excited about a topic and I can really learn and enjoy, you know, learning about that or doing an activity. And for me, you know, speaker being a speaker, being an advocate, is really exciting because I'm fighting for what I didn't have, I'm fighting for a narrative that I didn't know even existed. So most of the time, I feel really good to be neurodivergent. I feel really good to identify as disabled, as neurodivergent, as ADHD, because I feel like that has really let me to be where I am in life. I'm really enjoying my master's right now. You know like I'm meeting really cool researchers and scientists in different fields. So, yeah, I want to say usually very confident, usually very happy, but you know, we still live in a society that's not built for us but you know, we still live in a society that's not built for us, um, and that's why I think I'm disabled.

Fatima Bey: 15:24

I agree, we, we do live in a society that's not built for people like you, um, and when I see people like you, that's a very I'm really generalizing it because you're not all the same but, um, but for people who are neurodivergent, we, we really it's too new, for I think our society is learning and starting to understand, but we're really only built for one neurotype and most of us don't fall under it. So we really should question a lot of that. So what are your future plans?

Shirin Yazdian: 15:54

So I'm really excited about that. I want to become a clinical psychologist.

Fatima Bey: 15:58

Why.

Shirin Yazdian: 15:59

And in the UK that's a very long process. So I you know, the first day that I got my diagnosis, there was a psychiatrist there and a psychologist and I found their approach to be quite different but kind of the same, and that was, I think, one of the first times that I picked up the difference between psychiatry and psychology. But more than that, the reason I want to be one is I really believe in psychiatry, I really believe in medication for mental health, for, you know, like ADHD, but what I needed when I was 10, when I was 11, was lots of psychological input, was psychoeducationation, was a therapy that keeps in mind my type of brain, and that was not something that was available. So I'm again super lucky. My parents were very aware of, you know, different mental health issues, um, and we did try different therapists, but they would all say are you taking adhd medication, you just need to up the dose. And maybe I did.

Shirin Yazdian: 17:04

You know, I'm not saying I didn't, but at the same time I needed to learn what adhd was, what it meant, how it was going to impact you know, other aspects of my life, for, you know, nine years, I thought it's going to be only education related, um, and I was waiting to. You know, get rid of it. Um, like, I was told that it'll be gone when I'm 18, right, right, um, which you know. Now, with science, we know majority of people are adhd for their entire life. Um, but yeah, so I think that's why I want to be a clinical psychologist is I'm really passionate about inclusion and accessibility and how we can adopt our approach for different people and individualize it. So, you know, like, yeah, I feel like I didn't have that and that's what I need, needed, so I want to be that for someone else.

Fatima Bey: 17:58

I love that. What I what I hear you saying is that you want to be the change. You're going to be the change you want to be that for someone else. I love that. What I hear you saying is that you want to be the change. You're going to be the change you want to see. You're going to do what you didn't have done for you, and I have a lot of respect for people that do that, because I think it's very much needed. We can take all of the things that we've been through in your case it's it's neurodivergence and other people's cases something else but anything we've been through and we've dealt with and we've experienced, we can take that and turn it around and use it as a gem to help others, and I love that you're doing that Now. With that being said, what changes do you want to see in the world concerning people like you to see?

Shirin Yazdian: 18:40

in the world concerning people like you. So I want us to start using the right language. I think language that we use, vocabularies that we use, really impact the way we think, really impact the way we see people. So you know, like, for me now, when I say I'm disabled, I see it as a very neutral word, but other people don't. A lot of people see it, as you know, kind of like a negative thing. No, you're just differently abled. You know, like we change it to make it more palatable. But we already have a vocabulary, we already have a word that is neutral. So why don't we use that? Why do we need to give it a positive twist? Because we see it as a, you know, as a negative thing. That's why we're changing it.

Shirin Yazdian: 19:26

And you know, like, I think that's the same with ADHD, that's the same with autism, saying that there is a hierarchical kind of like acceptance when it comes to neurodiversity. And I think in most Western societies dyslexia is on top in terms of like acceptance. It's okay to be dyslexic. Like you know, that is something that we test a lot of people for. I think in UK majority of students get tested for it, so that's very accepted. But then ADHD is the next step. You know, yeah, you can be a little bit bubbly, a little bit fidgety, that's okay, but then autism doesn't fall into that category. You know, autism is like, oh, you know, like, typically when people think of autism, they think of someone with higher support needs which you know is autistic. That person is still autistic. I'm not saying it's not, but because for the longest time we've only learned about one type of, you know, one group of autistic people we don't know the variety of like, how autism can be in different people, in women and non-binary people, because you know we did the research on white men.

Shirin Yazdian: 20:30

We don't know how it can be, you know, with brown people, with black people. Um, lots of medical racism comes into that. We don't really refer black children to services because you know there is a perception of like, you know wrong sexist and wrong racist perception when it comes to you know who we refer to a service for a diagnosis. So I think the first thing is like, let's get their language right is all of us, including neurotypicals, including the majority of people who have, you know, they have the dominant neurological background, neurological brain, but also neurodivergent people. But neurodivergent is the group of people who diverge. And these are all inclusive categories, inclusive labels, and they are neutral.

Shirin Yazdian: 21:23

We as a society give them value. You know, like, when we go around and call a doctor who has ADHD, a high functioning person, that's quite bad. Like, are we taking away the fact that that person is ADHD? They might identify as disabled, they might not by law. Adhd is a disability in the UK. I think it is in the US as well, and Australia. But yeah, you know like, when you call someone high functioning, you kind of take away the fact that they also struggle with stuff. You only focus on the fact that they're putting a mask for you and they are, you know, kind of conforming to um, our society standards, without the challenges that it's having for them on their mental health, on their physical health, um. So yeah, let's not use functioning labels. That's, you know, not a very nice label to use, um, let's also see what that person uses, what language they they use. So if they say I have autism, then that's what I'm going to refer to.

Shirin Yazdian: 22:27

But majority of people have said that they are autistic and multiple research across the world they said they prefer autistic than having autism because that's a part of their identity. They don't see it as something separate that they can just leave out. So, going back to that, learn about the language, learn what people want to use and respect that. And you know, I've identified with ADHD differently throughout my life and I don't think there was, you know, a right narrative or a wrong narrative. The one that I'm in right now is a neutral one. I struggle with lots of stuff, but there is also lots of strength that comes with it. So, for example, the hyper focus example that I gave before. Yes, it can be super cool to focus on something for hours and hours and hours, but at the same time, I will forget to eat, I will forget to drink, I will forget to attend to my adult responsibilities, and that is disabling. That is something that we don't talk about.

Fatima Bey: 23:26

It's out of balance, is what it is. It can be having the hyper focus hey, that can be good in a lot of job positions. Some people will pay you a lot of money to be focused on certain things but it can be out of balance. I get what you're saying, but what I also hear what you're saying is that the changes that you want to see, they're not going to happen just by systems alone. It seems like they're going to happen by conversations like this.

Shirin Yazdian: 23:50

Yes, that's why I really believe in conversations like this, yes, and to have conversations with people who don't think the way we do. It can be hard sometimes when you know people are telling you your identity is not correct, but we should still engage in different types of conversations.

Fatima Bey: 24:09

We all should, and I really kind of focus on that, which is why I have people about it.

Fatima Bey: 24:14

I've talked about neurodivergence on here before, but this conversation is totally different than the other ones, and that's the way I want it to be, because there's more than one perspective on just about everything, and I think it's important to listen to those perspectives.

Fatima Bey: 24:27

But also, because of your age, you're speaking from yourself, but I know for a fact that you're speaking for many, many, many others who may not have this microphone right now, and so I'm glad that you came on and we can listen to what you have to say. And I think that we should spend more time listening to people that we categorize and treat as projects instead of people, and so if we listen to people like you, I think it's gives us the opportunity to gain a new perspective and maybe listen instead of just going on labels alone and I mean the negative in a negative way, because when people use negative labels in a negative way, as you said, it can be very damaging, and I think it's important to hear the humanness from you instead. So one last thing what advice do you have for other people in the world who are just like you right now?

Shirin Yazdian: 25:29

I think the first one is it's okay to feel whatever you're feeling about the fact that you're different, about the fact that you're neurodivergent. There's quite a lot of, you know, different emotions. That comes with it at different times and I want to say you know it does get easier, it does, but there are times that things will remind you of all the challenges again. You know, like job interview, I don't know, a conversation with your manager, a conversation with a teacher does make it difficult but it's okay to feel. You know like all the feelings does make it difficult but it's okay to feel. You know, like all the feelings and for me those were lots of shame lots of you know feeling broken, feeling different, feeling that this world is unfair.

Shirin Yazdian: 26:14

Why should I be the one, you know, struggling with the things that I'm struggling with? Lots of joy, you know, like I love a fun new hyper-focus, like hyper-fixating on a new activity that can be so fun. I can learn so much and especially, you know it's very helpful when it is related to my job, it is related to what I want to do. The other ones can be a little bit, you know, throw me off the track and lose quite a bit of hours, but usually it's really fun and it's OK to feel you know differently about it at different times in life, um, and it's not, you know, going back if you feel shame again, um, and the other thing is you're not alone.

Shirin Yazdian: 26:51

There are lots of lots and lots of amazing people who are neurodivergent, who do amazing stuff, um, because they're neurodivergent, but at the same time, there are things that they struggle with, and you know lots of doctors, lots of engineers, lots of athletes that we know, lots of actors, which I'm sure you already know about. All of them, or many of them, they are neurodivergent and potentially one of the reasons that they're really good at it is the fact that they're neurodivergent. You know, like we have lots of autistic people who are doctors, who are in health care, and they do amazing stuff because of the way their brain works.

Shirin Yazdian: 27:32

Yes there is a lot of beauty.

Fatima Bey: 27:35

There's a lot of beauty in different thinking, and you know, I always say when God made this world, he didn't make us all the same for good reason. You don't get jambalaya with just rice. You got to put some beans and meat in there. You know, all of us being different is part of the beauty, of what makes things work. Well, shireen, I really, I really enjoyed speaking with you, and even the off air very long conversation we had before even recording this. We probably should record some of that, but you've been really a joy to talk to and I hope to see you on bigger stages in the future. In fact, I'd be surprised if I don't. I think you are a fighter and I think there are a lot of people's lives that are going to be made better by you getting on stage and talking. So thank you for getting on this stage and talking today.

Shirin Yazdian: 28:28

No, thank you. This was a lot of fun for me. Thanks for having me.

Fatima Bey: 28:34

And now for a mind shifting moment. Shifting moment. I want you to think about this. Something she mentioned earlier is not just true for Shereen there are lots and lots of people walking around who are, in fact, neurodivergent but undiagnosed. Our society hasn't caught up. Science has not caught up with reality yet. It will. People are working on it, but we're not there yet.

Fatima Bey: 29:07

I want you to think about this the next time you notice someone who's weird, a little fidgety, kind of disconnected socially, a little bit awkward or so many other little ticks and things that just seem a little off. Perhaps, just perhaps, they're neurodivergent and undiagnosed or don't know it. I want you to think about it the next time you're around someone who seems a little quote-unquote weird, someone who seems a little quote-unquote weird. Maybe they're not weird, maybe it's just undiagnosed. I want you to consider how you view people who are different than you. You've been listening to MindShift Power Podcast For complete show notes on this episode and to join our global movement. Find us at FatimaBaycom Until next time. Always remember there's power in shifting your thinking.