Fatima Bey: 0:04

This is MindShift Power Podcast, the number one critically acclaimed podcast where we have raw, unfiltered conversations that shape tomorrow. I'm your host, Fatima Bey, the MindShifter, and welcome everyone. Today we have with us Julie Wagnall, and she is the author of the Extraordinary Power of Fireflies how to Shine your Light Brighter and Transform the World. How are you doing today, Julie? I'm doing. Great. Thanks for having me and thank you for coming on. I was really looking forward to meeting you and having this conversation, so I like to dive right into the conversation. So let me start off by asking you this why are you on this podcast and why should we listen to you?

Julie Wignall: 0:55

I love your question. I believe that the world is going through a major shift right now and that there's a lot that's out there. A lot of people are scared that we've got crazy things happening politically, not just here in the United States, but all over the world. We're dealing with climate change, we're dealing with AI, we're dealing with an overload of information, and I believe that a lot of people are scared, and I'm here to say we need to stop being afraid. It's time to learn to shine our lights brighter and it's time to stop complaining about what's happening and start thinking about the world we want to create the world that we want to live in, because we get to be architects of our own future of our own future.

Fatima Bey: 1:51

That is wonderful. So you have a your book. The Extraordinary Power of Fireflies is pretty. It's pretty power packed. So we're going to talk about that, but we're going to micro focus on some parts of the book because I think that our audience can really gain a lot from it. So, julie, your book isn't just about shining your light. You talk about how a firefly can be a hero to some and a villain to others. Why is it so important to include that tough reality? And what did you see in your own life that taught you that shining your light can get you in trouble?

Julie Wignall: 2:23

I think that we all grow up with a culture, family, society that tells us this is what it means to be a good person, and a lot of times what we are enculturated with, what it means to be a good person is really to like things that we don't like. You know, somebody would say, oh, we're having fish for dinner. I don't like fish. Of course you do. It makes your Aunt Nellie so happy coming to eat the fish. We do things. We forget what we like and what we don't like because we're so busy trying to be good. We have this concept of that's what good kids do and we need to reevaluate that. To say, wait a minute, maybe. Being good means being authentic, being honest and being open and, you know, having a code of values that maybe don't fit in someone else's. Being true to yourself. If being true to yourself because you are following a different path or following the tune of a different drum beat, that doesn't mean that you're not good. You know it's like let's kind of redefine this and that, no matter what we do, when we step up and we shine our lights bright and we're authentic and we're being true to ourselves, to me that really is the meaning, the true meaning, of being good, and there will always be people who will embrace what we do, but we are always going to tick a lot of people off who are going to find it offensive. How dare you and it can be as simple as saying I want to grow up and be an find it offensive. How dare you? And it can be as simple as saying I want to grow up and be an artist. Well, how dare you? You're going to be a starving artist and you know we're going to tell you everything that's going to be wrong. You're terrible. We don't want anything to. You know genders and you know. However you see yourself, there's always going to be someone who tells you that what you do is terrible.

Julie Wignall: 4:28

As nice as you can be, I am coming to you from Las Vegas, nevada, where I believe strongly in the importance of taking care of animals that migrate through here. Now, you would think that this is the simplest thing. I should be a hero. I make sure that there's drought-tolerant grass, because we live in the desert and we are on the Great Pacific Flyway. We have got tens of thousands of birds who need places to rest and to feed before they continue on. Well, that certainly sounds like I'm wonderful to feed before they continue on. Well, that certainly sounds like I'm wonderful.

Julie Wignall: 5:12

I have huge groups of people who think that I am just the enemy of everybody and everything, because I'm wasting water, feeding the grass and providing these shaded areas. This is the desert and I should just let it be 115 degrees and let the birds just die. So to one group, oh, I'm wonderful for being environmentally aware, helping to cool down our heat island effect. To another group, I am what I have been called selfish, entitled water waster, because who really cares about birds or the outside environment?

Julie Wignall: 5:51

We're beginning to live in a society where everything is indoors anyway and there are things like bugs outside. Why would you want to be there? So I'm the enemy. So if something as simple as that that you think, well, this must be really clear that this is a good thing, no matter what it is. Someone's going to see it as great and someone's going to see it as horrible, so as long as that's the reality, you might as well choose to live a life that is as authentic to yourself as you can and be happy. I am of the belief system that we are here to be happy and I choose happiness, and part of that is knowing what that is, and for most of us it's living a life that's authentic and true to ourselves.

Fatima Bey: 6:42

What would you say would be another word for authentic?

Julie Wignall: 6:49

to ourselves. What would you say would be another word for authentic? Diving deep, I'm going to tell you. To me, it's awareness. Being authentic is being aware of who you are, what you need when you need quiet time. I just need time alone. Yes, you're my friend and I want to spend time with you and go to see a movie or go shopping or something, but I just really need me time being aware, and we're not aware of a lot of that.

Julie Wignall: 7:10

I have this theory that when we are very young, we begin to forget what makes us happy. When I work with clients, whether it's corporate or individual, of any age, one of the first things I start with is what makes you happy, and let me tell you where that came from. Many years ago, I worked in a project with kids who were considered at risk in Utah, in a place where wide, wide open space, and these were kids who were sent from all over the United States by parents who said, oh, they can't make it, we're just we're going to ship them off and let someone else deal with them and it'd be their problem. And I got to do an environmental education program with them. These were 15 year old boys and incredibly smart, very creative, very innovative, but also they all carried a chip on their shoulder and they had a lot of anger.

Julie Wignall: 8:07

And after the second day of working with them, I stopped and I said you know what, if I were your fairy godmother? And I said I'm here to make every dream and wish of yours come true, whatever it is, that would make you happy? What would make you happy, happy? What would make you happy? And I faced a room of blank stairs and I thought well, this didn't land. And finally one of the boys spoke up and he said you know what?

Julie Wignall: 8:33

I'm 15 years old and no one has ever asked me what makes me happy. I've been told since I'm a kid. You know this makes you happy. That makes you happy. I liked the color pink when I was little and, kid, you know, this makes you happy. That makes you happy. I liked the color pink when I was little and you know, someone said to me no, boys, don't like pink, you have to like blue and you have to like green and that's going to make you happy. And we feed into this because when we are good people, nice people, we want to make other people happy. So we put our own happiness to the side, and what I'm hearing is that we forget it.

Fatima Bey: 9:14

Yeah Well, we forget it because people are like oh no, put a cover over that light. Yes, it's too bright, put a cover over it, mm-hmm. Now I'm going to ask you this because that leads into the next question I wanted to ask you. A lot of young people are scared to speak up because they don't want to be called a troublemaker or a bully or figure out a name. How does a teenager find the courage to be the hero, even when their friends, families, teachers or anyone else around them is telling them to shut up and be quiet?

Julie Wignall: 9:45

One of the first lessons that I teach is to look around you very closely and know where you're getting support and where you're not getting support.

Julie Wignall: 9:55

And a lot of times you can't cut yourself off. You're a teenager, you have family. You can't cut yourself off. But if you are not surrounded by any kind of encouragement or support, it's time to grow your circle bigger, and one of the things I work with are a number of different groups, and these are just free-form groups and I am learning that they are in every community. You just have to put yourself out there, Follow what it is that you like, and I believe that every group that really wants to be effective and you want to feel good about things.

Julie Wignall: 10:29

We need four generations involved. It can't just be one, because from a younger generation you need the support from someone who's in an older generation, who goes baby I've been fighting this fight and here's the ins and outs but people who treat each other with respect and awareness and are welcoming, providing a safe space and provide encouragement and support to continue, because what you find is, as a teenager, you find that you need to step up and, a lot of times, support people who are older than you to give them the courage to keep going. You don't think that you have that kind of power as a teenager. When you start dealing on that authentic level. You realize every single one of us needs to be encouraged. Every single one of us needs to know that it's okay, we're on the right path. We all have tough weeks and tough days, but that's why we're there for each other.

Fatima Bey: 11:31

I think you just took all of that from inside my brain. Stop stealing my thoughts. I agree with every single thing you just said, and in fact it's stuff that I'm constantly I find myself preaching and teaching. But I love what you said just now about four generations, because that is a perspective you don't hear from everyone. I agree with you, but it's a perspective that you just don't hear. It's a mind shift and so it's perfect for it is a mind shift.

Julie Wignall: 11:58

And let's think about this for a minute. You have anyone up to the age of 10, 12, there's going to be a lot of hey, I'm bored. When is it time to play? We're very play focused, but then we become teenagers and things become very serious and we forget the importance of play, because that's super important. But then I also tell teenagers pay attention, if you listen to, I don't care if it's a musician, if it's a playwright, if it's a poet, if it's whatever. Most people as adults will tell you that they got their best ideas when they were 13, 14, 15 years old, that they came from.

Julie Wignall: 12:41

Yes, yes yes yes, a period of time there that is so magical. I tell everybody, keep a journal, write stuff down. There's a time that's magical and I think it's because the way that our culture and society works, there's this time period where we're bored. And when you're bored and you're laying there in your room or on the grass watching clouds go by, or whatever you're doing, you're allowing yourself to think and to get in touch with that inner, authentic self, becoming aware of that of you, and that's where amazing ideas come out, unbelievable creativity.

Julie Wignall: 13:16

But then what happens after teenagers? You go into your 20s, your 30s. People are trying to climb a career ladder, they're looking at relationships, they're dealing with family situations and they don't have time to think. They don't have time for any of that that was a luxury of when you were a teenager. They need to be reminded of this.

Julie Wignall: 13:40

So by the time you get to the 20s, the 30s, the 40s, you need your teenagers to remind you of deep thoughts and becoming super aware of ourselves. But you also need the 10-year-old to remind you hello, it's time to play. And when you keep moving up the ladder, you start dealing with people in their late 70s and 80s and they start remembering the importance of play all over again, because they go this goes so fast. I feel like I was just 10 years old a few weeks ago. I need to play and it's time to stand up, and you don't want to wait until you're in your 80s to shine your light and to do all the things that you want to do. You want to start doing it now, and it's not easy to do when you're a teenager, which is why you want that whole round robin support system.

Fatima Bey: 14:29

I absolutely love the way you put that and the way you're framing that is absolutely beautiful. I want to go back to something you said a moment ago and talking to the audience. What Julie just said just now is absolutely true. Some of your best ideas that you're going to remember later on in life are happening right now, or maybe happened when you were 10, 12, or 13 years old.

Fatima Bey: 14:51

You are not stupid, dumb or weird for your thoughts. You need to bring them out and do something with them. Don't ever think that your ideas are crazy. Maybe your ideas are just before the times and maybe the people around you don't get your ideas, but your ideas aren't crazy. You might just need to get with an adult to figure out how to do those ideas, but I have discovered that none of you have really crazy ideas. They're good ideas, but they get buried under conformity and they get buried under trying to be like everyone else. So take that advice from Julie and discover who you are. Become aware of who you are, because who you are is always there. Just become aware of it and start acting on it. I love your stance on that, and so I'm going to ask you this about something that you say in your book? You say advocacy before activism. What does that actually mean and how does it help a young person to create real change without starting a fight or burning other bridges?

Julie Wignall: 16:00

You want. When I talk advocacy before activism, it means learning to listen and finding out what's at the root of why something's not working, not just to say it's not working and this is the way it need to do. So I'm going to stand up against it and let me let me give you an example here and this happened from a lot of adults that this is a project that I followed from the time I was a teenager into adulthood. I thought was so clever. Now imagine this In a lot of communities in different countries in Africa, one of the biggest problems that women and girls have is they spend the majority of their days walking to go get water. We don't think about this. We turn on a tap. These guys spend their entire day walking to get the water, walking back to the village to bring it back. So when did they get the chance to follow their dreams, to do what they want to do? So there was an engineer who came up with what I thought was an absolutely brilliant idea, and he called it play pumps. You can actually look this up and research it and you know those little merry-go-round things that we all played on when we were kids in the playground, and they go around and around and around. He designed one of those for kids to play on it, but what it was also doing was pumping up water which would free the women and the girls of any village up so that they didn't have to do this. It sounded like a brilliant idea. Well, I wasn't the only one who thought it was a brilliant idea. If you go down some of the top leaders in the world and these people who were parts of big organizations, they also thought that these were great ideas. Everybody invested in it and they started to put it in different communities in different countries in Africa Well, the countries that they were working in.

Julie Wignall: 17:56

There was a major problem here. They forgot to be advocates. They forgot to go into the country and say we're not, you know, instead of saying, well, we're here from the West and we're here to solve all your problems. Tell us how you see your problems, let us hear from you and tell us the best way that we can help at them. You know, we have this American way too often of saying, oh, we're going to go into this country and tell everybody what to do and how to do it. We're not asking. We need to go in, we need to ask, and they didn't do that. So they all picked places where these play pumps were going to go in. We need to ask, and they didn't do that. So they all picked places where these play pumps were going to go and nobody used them. They didn't. You know, they were dealing in cultures where it was very important to give respect to the elders, and it would have been the elders who would have chosen the right spot. They never did that, and that even happens here in the United States.

Julie Wignall: 18:57

Through my work, I had the good fortune to be adopted into a Pueblo, a Native American Pueblo in New Mexico. There was. I was actually doing a filming project and made it very clear I'm not here just to tell you your story. This is your story. You're here to tell me what to do, I'm here to learn and I'm here to listen, and that's a concept of being an advocate when things aren't always working the way that we want. We have to do the research to find out why Mm-hmm, and we have to listen.

Fatima Bey: 19:35

Absolutely. I love that Listen first, and that's a lesson for everybody. If you really want to get something done, you've got to listen first, because you can't solve a problem you don't understand.

Julie Wignall: 19:46

Yes, and I'll tell you one more thing. I actually wrote this story in my book, one of my famous stories. I was the director of the National Aquarium in Washington DC and I created I have the notoriety of having created the very first education program for kids who are visually impaired, and that sounds wonderful. So how did I do it? I thought this is something that hasn't been done. It should be done.

Julie Wignall: 20:13

I spent nine months researching this and I spent time talking to PhDs. I was working with the Smithsonian Institution and everybody that knew anything and had a very big, important name dealing with people who are blind, people who are visually impaired. And I created the program just like they told me to. And I had the day of doing my pilot. And when I tell you, it was one of the biggest failures that I have ever encountered. Everything I had been taught and told did not work with the group that came in. It was a mess.

Julie Wignall: 20:50

15 minutes into the program I stopped everything and I apologized to the kids that we had there and I said I made a mistake. I was an activist before I was an advocate. I forgot to go to the most important group there. Who was I trying to reach. I was trying to develop a program for visually impaired kids. I'm talking to scientists and PhDs and psychologists. I forgot to go to the kids to say you're who, I'm talking to scientists and PhDs and psychologists. I forgot to go to the kids to say you're who I'm trying to reach. I need listening to you. You tell me what's going to work and what's not going to work. So I invited them to help create the program with me, which they did, and the whole program ended up being based on their input.

Fatima Bey: 21:34

And that's how you get something to function. All of you who are listening out there trying to create programs that aren't working, maybe you're not listening. First, I always say this kind of goes with what I always say reach people where they are. Stop throwing the ball to the left when the people are on the right, and very often we're like, well, everybody should be on the left, so I'm going to throw the ball to the left, but you didn't take the time to find out where they are, and I mean where they are mentally, where they are financially, where they are emotionally, where are they? And that's how you reach people.

Julie Wignall: 22:05

And sometimes by listening, you find out you think that they should be on the right. They're on the left and you find out there's a really good reason. They're on the left, are on the left, and you find out there's a really good reason.

Fatima Bey: 22:16

they're on the left, and that's a good place to be that you never even thought about. Yeah, got to listen first. Yeah, absolutely love that. So let's talk to the young leaders. So let's say you're a young leader, you're trying to do the right thing and everyone is calling you the bad guy. How do you find strength to believe in yourself and your own perspective when the world is telling you that you're the villain?

Julie Wignall: 22:37

Well, the world is always going to tell you that you're the villain. I find it the importance of you've got to start with. What is it that you're trying to do, what gives your life meaning or purpose, or why you're in the position the first place? Because this is important to you and you got to know why it's important to you. And then you have to know your code of values. You have to know what you stand for, and this becomes really important when you're younger, because if you are trying to become an activist or trying to lead a group or to set something new and different, your code of values is going to determine the choices you make. When you say I have a code of values, that means it has to have integrity and it's going to support kindness. But all of a sudden, here's a company that says I'm going to back you, I like what you're doing, and they're like the biggest bullies in the community. There should be no question. If you know your code of values, you go. I'm not aligned with these people. And you have to focus on what your values are and what you are aligned with, so that you at least feel comfortable knowing that there's a reason why you're standing up, there's a reason why you may be getting a lot of pushback, but again, when you do that, there are people who need to hear what you have to say yes, yes, there are people who will help you to come up to the next level, and that's part of that multi-generational. But when you're a teenager, this is really hard to remember, which is why I think it's so important to have the support and encouragement for that.

Julie Wignall: 24:32

When you're taking a stand on something or you're trying to accomplish something new, you think that it's great. Other people think that you're the villain. You don't really understand why, but people take you down and all of a sudden you get that hate on social media and I never understood that until I had some directed at me and it was like oh my gosh, boy, did that bring me down? I can only imagine how I would have felt when I was 13, 14, 17.

Julie Wignall: 25:01

But it's knowing what you're believing in and knowing that, inside, the most important thing to realize is that when you shine your light brighter, you're giving permission for someone else to step out on the path with you, someone who might have been standing on the sidelines with the same wishes and dreams and hopes without the courage that you have, and courage is not innate. Courage is not something that we're all born with. I would love to think so, and maybe for some people it is, but for most of us courage is something that we have to cultivate and work on. It's like exercise that we have to work on every day to be able to stand up. But once you're doing it, you're sending a message to a lot of other people saying if they can do it, I can come and step out in the light too.

Fatima Bey: 25:56

What I'm extracting from what you just said is find some alignment. Find your tribe, find the people that will actually support you, because there's always going to be people that call you the villain for making them uncomfortable because you want to do something new and different. Anytime we stand up, I don't care who you are or how old you are. Anytime we stand up. But especially if you're youth and you're being told to shut up and sit down because you're only 16, what the hell do you know? That's when you need to shut up and sit down because you're only 16, what the hell do you know? That's when you need to stand up and show the other 16-year-olds that you're worth something and they can too. And that's also when you take that stand and you make the decision to stand strong, despite how you feel. You make that decision, you're also showing the adults I'm not just a stupid little kid, because some adults do think that way. Unfortunately they do.

Julie Wignall: 26:41

And if you keep looking, you will find adults who want to hear what you have to say and, yes, value, and it's not just, oh, I want to hear what you have to say. Who really value what you have to say. There's a lot. There's a lot that I learn and I know that there's a lot that a lot of other people know. You know, being older, I grew up at a time where I was just told, as a female, to accept certain things.

Julie Wignall: 27:10

Oh, I want to talk to a seven year old today. They'd say, why would you settle for that? Why would you? And it's like I need that wake up call and that's where we all work together. So, and it's it's the light in me sees the light in you, and it's having that mutual respect to know that we all bring something very, very special to the table and everybody is worth listening to. And I'll tell you, even when you find your quote-unquote tribe and a group that's there, you're still going to intimidate people because ego still gets in the way.

Julie Wignall: 27:49

And I had a wonderful person who gave me this advice and I'm going to share it with everybody who's listening, because I was recently in this situation at a conference with people who are all looking to change the world and doing wonderful things and things that were unconventional. And I had someone say to me but Julie, your light is so bright, you have so much energy. You need to bring it back in and condense that a little bit. That's just too much. And I had someone who had advised me on this a long time before and they said you know what, walk around with extra pairs of sunglasses and you hand them out.

Fatima Bey: 28:29

I love that. I may steal that myself, and you are welcome to. Oh, much to brag for you, honey. Here, put these glasses on. That's exactly right. There you go.

Julie Wignall: 28:40

Yeah, you. Just you put your shades on, because I'm not dimming my light for anything, and I say this to every young person who is listening to this young adult, teenager, identify any way that you want. I'm going to repeat this again. The world is changing right now and it's changing very quickly, and one of the reasons why we are in the mess that we're in whether you're looking at the environment or politics or one thing or other is you get to the root. I think it was Desmond Tutu who once said you got to get to the point where, instead of just pulling people out of the river, you got to find out why they're jumping in in the first place. That's a really good quote.

Julie Wignall: 29:24

How did we get here? We got here because our systems are broken and they don't work. Yep, our education system, our health care system. You know all the crazy things that when you're a teenager, this is ridiculous. Why do you have to do this? You're right, this is ridiculous and it's because these systems are broken and they don't work anymore and it's time not to fight. I have a great friend who says it's not revolution, it's resolution. Become resolute and know and get a vision of what it should look like, and that's what you work for and that's what you fight towards, because the way it's working today doesn't work. But unless you stand up and shine that light, now is no longer the time to sit on the sidelines with your hopes and your dreams and your wishes. It's time to take all those things and take action, and at any age you can do that as I asked all my guests, but you just did so.

Fatima Bey: 30:44

Now I'm going to ask you how can people find you? Before you answer that, your book, the Extraordinary Power of Fireflies, uses fireflies as an analogy for many deep principles of life, and what I like about your book is that you know it looks like another book about finding yourself and being joyful, but you actually dive a little deeper than the average what I call fluffernutter book. It's just full of whipped cream, ain't got nothing substance to really say and says all the same things that everybody else says. But you actually do dive a little bit deeper. In the fact that you don't just talk about all the nice fluffy stuff. You really take a deeper dive. We've only touched on a pinhead worth of the stuff that's in your book. So tell people how can they find you and how can they find your book.

Julie Wignall: 31:32

All you have to remember is wwwextraordinaryfirefliescom. Extraordinaryfirefliescom. Once you hit the website, it can connect you to every different social media site. But there's also a free download that's called Flying Lessons for Fireflies and there are five exercises you can start doing right now to start building up confidence, so that you know that you are worthy, you are deserving, you are enough exactly as you are today and you can start shining a light brighter. And as an extra benefit to that, it puts you on a mailing list where just once a week you get a small note of encouragement, inspiration and then when I get those notes back that say that really helped me this week, that becomes my encouragement and my inspiration, and I'm personally going to sign up for her newsletter, you guys, so you should too, and she's like me.

Fatima Bey: 32:30

She's not interested in spamming you to death Once a week. Something that I can actually read I'll sign up for, not the spam, I don't believe in that either. So I love that you do that and I really thank you for coming on. I hope that our audience was able to get at least a morsel of something out of everything that we said today, but I do encourage you all to follow Julie and read her book. She's got a lot more to say and, again, we only touched on a tiny part of it today. And once again, thank you, julie, thank you so much.

Julie Wignall: 33:02

This has been wonderful being here.

Fatima Bey: 33:06

And now for a mind shifting moment, I want to go back to something that Julie said during this episode, and I'm rephrasing this. But she said that our greatest insight into ourselves are when we're younger. And I'm rephrasing this, but she said that our greatest insight into ourselves are when we're younger, and if you're listening, I don't care what age you currently are. She was 100% right about that, and here's the thought seed I want to plant in you today. What dreams and visions or insight did you have that you have now shut up and shut down because of societal expectation, because you've assimilated to be accepted? What beauty have you buried inside you? What light are you not shining? Because society has taught you out of them. Every single one of you is carrying a light that you're not shining. I want you to consider, I want you to remember what that light is. You've been listening to MindShift Power Podcast for complete show notes on this episode and to join our global movement. Find us at fatimabaycom until next time. Always remember there's power in shifting your thinking.