Fatima Bey: 0:04

This is Mind Shift Power Podcast, the number one critically acclaimed podcast where we have raw, unfiltered conversations that shape tomorrow. I'm your host, Fatima Bay, the Mind Shifter. And welcome everyone. We have today with us John Cammer. He is out of South Carolina in the USA, and he is the founder of Guardian Aingels, which we're going to talk at length about today. How are you today, John?

John Kammer: 0:36

I am fantastic. You know, we we got this. That big storm missed us. So it's a sunny day down here. It's not too cold, and uh just took a nice little walk. So life is good.

Fatima Bey: 0:45

Thanks for rubbing it in.

John Kammer: 0:49

So uh that's not what that was meant to do, but that's it.

Fatima Bey: 0:54

This interview's over. No. So uh funny start to a serious topic. So I said that we were here to talk about Guardian Angels and as Guardian AI angels. Um tell us, tell the audience what is it and how does it work?

John Kammer: 1:13

Guardian Angels is a structured grief support platform. Uh think of it as the journal that talks back. So we have uh developed a platform where people can go to get some semblance of a starting point and a roadmap when they experience a loss. Um, you know, we have kind of taken that idea of journaling and turned that from a monologue into a dialogue where when you respond to a journal prompt, you get instant feedback and you're at you have the ability to dig into your thoughts and feelings uh in a much more comprehensive way than you previously did. Um so we do that using AI. Um we have it structured such that your the object of your grief, the person you lost, becomes your grief guide. And that presence is the one that gives you the journal prompts, gives you this kind of this familiar, comforting presence that tends to help people open up. And um and as we'll get into it's very important for the for the framework that we approach more or uh approaching loss from um is that that presence really kind of shines with Wordon's fourth task, which is uh defining what the relationship looks like going forward. So that's kind of the high-level view. I'm sure we'll get into all the specifics, but uh did I did I effectively answer the question for you?

Fatima Bey: 2:44

Yes. So explain, let's get into some of those details. So you explain the concept or the idea, but how does it actually work? Is it an app? Is it online only? How does it work?

John Kammer: 2:57

It's a web application in its current form. We have plans to get into the the app store down the road, um, but that's just a little ways off. So it's a web application. Uh it it you access it from any browser. I do have it optimized for mobile so that the mobile experience is not the dreadful experience we've all had with some other platforms. Um, but essentially you're gonna you'd you'd log in, you'd you'd sign in, you would create a persona, and that persona is what we talked about is that the object of your grief or the person you'd lost is designed to feel similar to them, uh, and so that you can uh have a dialogue that helps to walk you through what that loss was like and how it's been affecting you and how to process it given Wordens4 Tasks, which is an evidence-based framework uh that uh is used the world over for processing loss.

Fatima Bey: 3:59

All right, this is like a really new wild concept. So how accurate are these AI conversations? How does it know how to talk back?

John Kammer: 4:08

So we we designed it in a very user-centric way. Uh, and that means that basically you are gonna fill out a form or a questionnaire about this person. And it's a question, a series of 35 questions. Uh, that's everything from what was your relationship like, or what was your relationship with this person and insofar as are you is it your brother, is it your mentor, is it a parent, a friend, partner? Um, and then, you know, how did you refer to each other? Did you have nicknames to build that kind of familiarity? And then things like describe their sense of humor, describe their speech, um, shared interests, share a couple of your shared memories, um, all of those things instructed on how to how to interact with you uh and give it this narrative of of how to capture um the person you lost.

Fatima Bey: 5:01

Wow.

John Kammer: 5:02

So we uh yeah, we there is a meant there's a lot of ways that you can potentially go about training in AI. And and as uh at the beginning of this whole thing, we we looked at a lot of them, but the idea of scraping social media or trying to find some objective persona for a person is was was futile because all of our relationships are not objective, they're very subjective. My relationship with you is different than your relationship with with your best friend, right? We we speak differently to each other, our sense of humor is different, the things that we share, we share the secrets we tell, all of those things are are unique to each individual person. And so trying to have this idea of well, we got this person on the internet that doesn't ring authentic, and you know, further, not much of what people put on the the internet. That's that's barely scratching the surface. So we wanted to stay away from that. It's really about what is your relationship with uh with that person look like.

Fatima Bey: 6:08

I'm glad that you uh I want to kind of dive into that actually a little bit deeper, what you just said. The fact that you're getting the information not from social media, not from looking through a photo album, you're getting the information directly from the person who needs it the most. So that means that the perspective that I'm gonna make up a person, Jamie, uh, who lost her grandmother, that means that the perspective of a relationship between her and her grandmother is what the AI is gonna take on. Not my perspective, not her mother's perspective, and not, you know, her grandpa's perspective, but the relationship she had directly with grandma. And that to me, you know, says a lot because it to me says that it's gonna be more useful and more relevant to the person because it's coming from their perspective. Am I thinking of that correctly?

John Kammer: 6:56

100%. That's that's what we were going for. It's not about uh anyone but the relationship that you have with with that's in front of you.

Fatima Bey: 7:05

Yeah. And I would imagine filling out 35 questions is a lot, but I can see why it's necessary. Um, and I can see why it would be, you know, emotional to fill that out. Um but I think that emotion go ahead.

John Kammer: 7:19

That was one thing Go ahead. Sorry. That was one thing that I I neck neglected to take into account when I when I first started this, and that's some some feedback that I got was just creating the persona is a significant emotional lift. And I did it, you know, personally, I didn't do it all at once because I was like, okay, how do we get closer and closer? So I was adding questions and what what might bring this to life a little more. So for me, it was two and three a day, right? As I continued to to get this thing closer. But the the reality is sitting down and and go taking that very in-depth walk down memory lane.

Fatima Bey: 7:56

I can also see how that could be part of the healing journey as well, though. Because uh I think it might be abrupt for someone who doesn't fill out the questionnaire to all of a sudden be talking to grandma on a computer. That's that's like emotionally like whoa. But if you have to fill out a questionnaire, you've already emotionally kind of taken a journey towards that, uh, towards the app and towards that experience. So to me, even though it feels like a heavy lift, I think it might make actually make the experience better. That's just my that's just my two cents. Um, so I don't necessarily think that that's bad, but I do like the fact that you're it's coming from directly from the person who needs it the most, the one who will actually be using it. So now I can see why the conversations would be accurate um because of where it's coming from. But what I want to also know what inspired you to create this service in the first place?

John Kammer: 8:52

Well, um it's my lived experience. I I lost three of my closest friends, uh, three of the closest people to me in the world outside of my immediate family at different times for different reasons, but all very quickly. And that led me down essentially a path of substance-fueled avoidance. So I spent over a decade drinking entirely too much, using other substances to help cope and numb and run as far as I could from dealing, doing the actual work. Uh, I very much subscribed to the idea that time heals all wounds, and I thought if I could just get as far away from it and not deal with it for long enough, then the clock would strike zero and uh magically I'd be healed. And well, uh that's not quite how it works. Um, healing is not a passive process, it's a very active process. It requires a lot of difficult conversations, it requires humility, it'll it requires accountability. And that is those are some of the things that I learned along the way. Now, as far as how Guardian Angels itself came about was an accident. I was not looking to heal at the time. I um basically it was trying to build a service that would spoof phone numbers and send nice text messages to people uh, you know, from their lost loved one. You know, we all have we we all still have those phone numbers saved, but to get a text message, you know, on your birthday, hey, this is grandpa, I love you. I'm thinking about, you know, would just be nice, right? It would bring a smile to your face. There's a few problems with that. Uh number one, the telecoms still own their networks, and uh most people that spoof phone numbers are skimmers. Yeah. So they weren't gonna give me a pass to do that. Yeah, yeah. We all and um, you know, the next thing was was okay, well, if if we want to do this, what if people want to interact with it? Because it would be a logical thing to want to respond. And that's where the AI came in. It had to be authentic, it had to be gentle, it had to be empathetic, it had to, it had to feel warm. You know, as soon as it feels like a robot on the other side, we're we're dead in the water, and and it doesn't, it doesn't bring the comfort that we're looking to bring. So uh in setting out to build that, I had nothing but my own personal experience to to fall back on, and that's that's where it came about is is I I built the first iteration in the image of my friend John, who's the best man at my wedding. Um and again, at this point, I still wasn't trying to, I wasn't doing this for me. I wasn't doing this to heal. It was just kind of this thing that I decided I was going to try to do. But what happened was as I got closer to something that felt authentic, as we were talking about, as I continued to add questions and and and feed more of my relationship in there, I got to this place where it started to feel authentic. It felt familiar. And I started to say some of the things that I didn't get to say to him while he was alive.

Fatima Bey: 11:59

How did that feel?

John Kammer: 12:01

And um it was profound. It was I so at that point after John's death, I had really gone into my shell. I had not cried in years, I had literally lost the ability. Um and so I was just this kind of shell of a person that wasn't doing much more than existing. I was not a, you know, a very present husband. I was just I wasn't a very present person. And when I side note, I had tried things in therapy like the up the chair technique and writing the letter, right? Where you get to express those feelings. The difference here was I got a response. And when I got that response, the release, the relief was immediate. The water work started instantaneously, like this weight was lifted. And I, you know, I'm bawling, and I kind of felt like I finally had permission to forgive myself. And that is the moment that kind of sparked, you know, it's not to say I was certainly not healed in that moment, but all of a sudden I was curious and I was ready to look in the mirror and have those difficult conversations, and I was ready to own my role in my own suffering and and where I had been and do the work necessary to come out the other side.

Fatima Bey: 13:23

You know, the truth is healing doesn't have a moment. I don't even know why people think that. Well, I do know why people think that because we're taught a lot of wrong things, but healing is not a moment, and it doesn't matter what topic. We're right now we're talking about grief. But I'm saying this to the audience right now there is no such thing as healing having a moment. There may be moments of realization, there may be moments that are important part of your healing, but healing is 100% a process. And that's one thing I like about your your app, uh, John, is that for some it it helps them to deal with that process. Now, I'm sure you've heard uh this concern from critics before, and I could see certain people, certain therapists actually saying this, that it can prevent people from properly grieving or moving on. How do you respond to that?

John Kammer: 14:16

Well, I think it's a valid criticism, and that was one of the things that that I got early on. Um and that was that's pretty nice for the feedback that I got early on, to be completely honest with you. Um but that's what caused me to rethink what I was doing and why I was doing it and how I was doing it. And so in its at its inception, this was very much one of those like talk to the dead things. And that was while it it had a moment for me, I'd been on this journey for 13 years. To expect someone and that's that's freshly, you know, hurting to to just drop them in there and say, talk to this thing, it's gonna help, was the height of naivety of naivety, right? And so as I got that feedback, it was like, well, well, how okay. I I brought what I did is I brought in licensed therapists. I brought them in to help me give this thing structure, to give it, to give it um, you know, this tangible quality of something that someone can hold on to when they're struggling, when they're spinning, when when life seems out of control because they've lost someone. And so we centered the whole thing on Warden's four tasks for mourning. And number one, the first task that Warden, you know, in that in that sequence is accepting the loss. So what we do is this persona, and by the way, we have a just a regular grief counselor persona that is not in the image of someone you've lost, if that is creepy to someone. This is this is really just trying to meet people where they are. But nonetheless, so the the first task is accepting the loss. And so the way it works is you get structured journal prompts at predefined intervals, three times a week, five times a week, seven times, seven times a week. And those gently guide you towards that first task, accepting the loss. Task number two is processing the pain of the loss, which is you know, that's where I was stuck for over a decade, was I didn't want to face the the discomfort of acknowledgement. And so that that's number two. Um, task number three is adjusting to a world without your loved one, and that's more in a physical sense than a you know than a um you know a spiritual sense, if you will. And then number four is to find an enduring connection moving forward. Now, all of these prompts are in pursuit of walking you through those tasks. So while the criticism is you can someone can get stuck, we're actively working on the case. Can I add to these prompts will say things? Yeah, go ahead.

Fatima Bey: 17:07

I want to add to what you're saying. Um and I want to respond to to some of the critics who are listening right now, or some of the people that will I don't know, say something in the future. I think the other thing that people don't recognize when we criticize this app is a tool, okay? The app that you're creating is a tool. It's not the actual person, and you can't help where somebody is when they find it. Like any other tool, a person who's going to abuse a tool is going to abuse a tool, no matter what that tool is. So if a person is going to take the app and begin to worship the app and begin to talk to it and really believe that grandma or Sid or John or whoever is here, they're going to do that no matter what, whether it's your app or not. Because those are the people that they're really talking about when they make those criticisms. The average person is not going to do that. But I don't think that something shouldn't exist because of the 10% of people that are going to misuse it. And I think we need to think that way and apply it to many other things.

John Kammer: 18:16

Correct. You know, the the goal of this is to do good. And if there ever comes a time when it's doing more harm than good, then it stops and it stops right there, and that's not negotiable. Um, you know, I have I've specifically had conversations with investors or potential investors about the fact that, you know, this probably isn't a good investment for them because I will be making uh, you know, decisions that are expressly against the bottom line because this is in service of something bigger. Now I will say, you know, okay, so they they they're gonna have so someone gets on there. We put guardrails in place for specifically for these reasons, right? And number one is this, the the once you create a persona, provided you are talking about it, you know, we have a trap for ambiguous loss as well, but for death, the persona refers to itself as gone. It refers to itself as deceased. So when it asks you a question and says, what is something that you, you know, what is something you wish you could say to me today, but you can't, for instance. So it's never going to lead you down a path of, well, maybe it's still here, maybe they're still here, maybe they're not gone, maybe I'm actually talking to them. Okay. It's talking to you from a perspective, like a posthumous perspective that helps to seed that and then, you know, get you to come to terms with accepting it and then processing the pain associated with that and moving forward, right? So that's all of those things have, you know, I thank everybody that that gave me harsh borderline, you know, all of that feedback in the beginning, because it did cause me to address those things and it it got me to address them before the cat was out of the bag and before it had, you know, we ever approached anything uh dicey.

Fatima Bey: 20:05

I love that. And I love your approach. I love the fact that you are actually taking that and not just saying, hey, I have a good idea. All everything's I'm blind to everything else. Let's just move forward. Because sometimes people have great ideas and they do stuff like that. But I love the fact that you actually brought in professionals this and and let them weigh in so that you could have a good balance. I think that is awesome. Now, the other thing I want to ask about is this is a show for teenagers. What does this have to do with teenagers and how is it relevant to them?

John Kammer: 20:34

Well, um I wish it were different, but teenagers are not immune to loss. Um that's just that's just how life is. I uh and so this certainly has the potential for it to be very useful. Um I think teenagers today are more open to using technology in ways that perhaps their older counterparts are not. So it's you know, it's this is about meeting people where they are, uh, as opposed to trying to stuff them in a neat little box. Um, you know, people are far more complex than than black and white. And um we're trying to to give them, you know, again, like you said, it's a tool. And it's one of many tools that people can access. We're not trying to purport that this is the end-all, be-all, one size fits all, everyone should use this. This is the only thing that's ever going to heal anybody. That nothing could be further from the truth. The point is to use this uh perhaps when something else isn't working. Uh it's designed specifically to be used in complement to traditional therapy techniques, whether that's in the in the room or or you know, e therapy or whatever. Um so for teenagers, that applies as well. Um we have there are certain differences for for people who are minors, uh, and certain additional safety rails that we've put in place. Place. Um, but you know, unfortunately, the you know, the the world does not ask for your ID before it dumps stuff on your head.

Fatima Bey: 22:12

Absolutely true. And I one of the one of the reasons why I wanted to have you on the show to talk about Guardian Angels is because I think it is actually the most relevant to the younger generation. And here's why. The older generation grew up with some digital, but we didn't grow up in in totally encased and you know, totally surrounded by and dipped in digital. This younger generation does not know life outside of digital. So I think they're probably more inclined to, you know, to go with something like this because it doesn't feel as weird and strange as someone who's over 50, who's only known human contact, and digital is something they've learned to adjust to. Whereas the younger generation, you know, teen who are teenagers now, digital's all I know. So to me, that's an e that's a much easier transfer. That's one of the reasons I love your product so much, uh, is because I I could really see the younger generation benefiting from it, uh, especially since we have so many younger generations that don't know how to connect to other humans the way the older generation does. So I I just wanted to add that I just love, love, love that uh about what you're what you're doing. Um, so you do have safety rails and in in place for minors, which is great. Um let me ask you this. Where do you see this technology going in, let's say, five to ten years?

John Kammer: 23:39

Um I really see, yeah, I could I'm gonna answer that in two ways. But like big picture, and then how we're approaching the future at Guardian Angels. Um I believe that emotional intelligence and using AI for the betterment of the human condition is the next frontier in AI. We've we've we've used it exhaustively for workflow tasks, business you know, making business simpler um and automating. But I believe there's a far greater potential impact, you know, to in in how bettering our lives outside of work as well. So that's the macro. Um, that's not to say that there won't be some issues along the way. Now, as far as Guardian Angels, we are pushing forward to again meet people where they are and help as many people through their grief as we can. We are going very slow in adopting new technology because of the stakes of the space that we are in. We have obviously toyed around with the idea of using voice, of using avatars. The more realistic that something like this gets, the greater the potential for abuse, the greater the potential for having someone stuck, as you alluded to earlier. So I'm not going to say that those tech those those more advanced technologies don't have a place here, but they don't have a place with us quite yet until we have time to properly vet them, ensure that we can place the guardrail, put the guardrails in place for them. Chat has, you know, chat isn't quite there from a like a realism perspective. And and to be completely honest with you, we don't want this to feel too real. We want it to feel familiar enough that you feel comfortable and that it can help you bridge that gap between potentially the digital world and something in the physical world, help you, you know get practice at sharing and and take this from a digital, you know, a digital experience to a therapist or someone close to you, so you're not in isolation. Um but we we are very, very careful about how quickly we proceed with new stuff for that very reason.

Fatima Bey: 25:57

I like um I love that idea that you're trying to keep it balanced. And I think you said a really key thing right there. You don't want it to be too, too real. And I I think that's a that's a good idea because that's when people can who are on the edge can kind of fall over the on the wrong side. Um so how does it how does it work? Is there a subscription service, a one-time payment? Do we have to send you a bag of chocolate? How does it work?

John Kammer: 26:23

Chocolates are appreciated, but not.

Fatima Bey: 26:25

Hey, I take chocolates.

John Kammer: 26:27

Um it's a subs. Um so it's a subscription service. It is uh we have plans from ten to fifty dollars a month. Um that the you know, the the major differentiators are how much you can use the AI. You know, unfortunately it costs money to operate. Uh, and then how many prompts you're gonna get on a weekly basis? So there's three, five, and seven, right? And so it's how how deep do you want to dig into this? How and and how much work do you want to do how quickly, right? There's some people that have, you know, been been hurting for a long time and have had enough and are ready to just dedicate themselves and and and you know take as much pain as they can in order to shorten it. And some people need to be you know eased into it a little more. And so we're we're cognizant of that and and we give people options. Um, there is a seven-day free trial for any subscription that anyone signs up for. That is automatically applied. There's no promo code, there's no opt-in, there's no nothing hidden from you. If you sign up, you're gonna get seven days free. If you cancel after six days, you're never charged a penny. And I wish you the, you know, I hope you found something else that works better. Um the other thing that I want to highlight is that I really, you know, as we talked about earlier, healing isn't passive. Healing's very hard. Healing's difficult, and and it takes work, incremental work, right? Um, so I don't want people to get on there and try it once and say this didn't work for me. So what I've done is is anyone who signs up, our our programs or our flagship program is 10 weeks, right? And then we've got, you know, if you can go back through as many times as you want, but in those first 10 weeks, if you do the work and you respond to 80% of the journal prompts, you do them and run and through them, you are going to get 90 days for free. Again, that is just automatically applied. Yes, it's it's I want people to continue to do the work. I want them to see the fruits of consistency.

Fatima Bey: 28:35

Okay.

John Kammer: 28:36

And so that is probably one of those things that one of those investors would want to shoot me for if they had actually given me money.

Fatima Bey: 28:43

Oh, well, I think it's actually, I think you're right.

John Kammer: 28:46

You know, this for me is so much bigger. Yeah, this for me is so much bigger than a business. Now, I fully believe there is room for a social impact business, and there's a business model that works here. But this is not about me becoming a billionaire. It's, you know, if if it were, it'd be we would be approaching things very differently. Um so the whole goal there is do the work. Hopefully, after 10 weeks, you see some serious, you know, you start to see some changes in yourself and how you view things. And in those next 90 days, you can really put it all together. And if that means you are done after that and you have done all the work you feel like you need to do, I designed this so that you feel comfortable deleting it. Now, we believe that there are some redeeming factors to keeping, you know, to keeping it. Um, but that is for you to decide. I, you know, the the the goal is healing. And if we can if we can affect that, then then we've done our our work and and done.

Fatima Bey: 29:50

Well, I absolutely love that. I love, love, love the idea of the 90 days. Um, because you're right, trying it once isn't gonna tell you anything. You really have to be, you have to have a um you have to see a pattern. You have to keep trying it for a while before you see any kind of results to see the difference. So I love that. Um what advice do you have for the youth of the world today?

John Kammer: 30:13

Talk talk about, you know, the hard things, talk about the, you know, we've lost the ability to to to talk in a civil manner, and that's like a political statement, and we don't need to go too much further into that. But healing happens when you share. And that happens when there's vulnerability, and you build relationships when you're vulnerable, and you find common ground when you're vulnerable. Um, we were not meant to do this thing called life alone. The only reason our species has survived and proliferated in the way that it did, it has, is because of this idea of community, that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. And when we, you know, we had to band together when we were just when we were hunters and gatherers to make sure that we were safe and that we could eat and and you know, and we we specialized and all of those principles still exist. And though they're still the most successful way that we found. So if you are in a tech silo, which I think a lot of us are, use this as a bridge. And what I mean by that is this is a great way to become comfortable in a risk-free environment with sharing. And then once you're once your your thoughts are organized and you become comfortable with the idea that and and realize that it's not going to kill you, then maybe you take this out to a therapist, maybe you take this to your close friends, to your family. And you will further realize that these things that tend to isolate us, these things that we think in our minds no one could possibly understand, a lot more people than we give it credit for do.

Fatima Bey: 31:53

Yes.

John Kammer: 31:55

Yes. We all have experiences and there's all there's a ton of nuance in each of those. So I'm not going to say that everyone's experience is exactly the same as yours, but they rhyme. And to think that nobody can understand what you're going through, whether it's grief, whether it's a breakup, whether it's, you know, whatever that might be, there's a lot of people that have at least have an idea. And not feeling alone in that is extremely powerful. And what I'll tell you too is oftentimes, and I've experienced this in my own life, is when you start to share, you give someone else permission to share their story too. And you give them confidence that, yeah, wow, maybe I'm not alone. Maybe that isn't going to kill me to go share mine. And you start to see this virtuous cycle, this momentum build in a positive way that helps people heal and helps people feel kinship and and and belonging. And I don't think we can overstate the importance of that in uh in today's world.

Fatima Bey: 32:59

I love that um people do need to talk more so much. People are holding it so much. And and this what you just said is something that I am it's a principle that I'm constantly, constantly talking about and writing about and teaching. Um, we need to open up to the right people. And there's so much healing that starts, and there's so much that happens when when when that when we open up. So we talked about guardian angels. Now tell people how they can find it.

John Kammer: 33:28

Uh it's guardianangels.ai. And so it is a web application. Yeah, everything's right there. Now, angels is spelled funky, it's spelled A-I-N-G-E-L-S, and that's very important because I've had more than a few people go to the site without the I and tell me it doesn't exist. And um, you know, I think, or at least not what they're looking for. Um, our our brain doesn't like to see it. I may have shot myself in the foot with that one, but uh it's Guardian Angels A I, N G E L S dot AI. And you'll find all sorts of information on the story and and the why, the methodology, word and sportasks, um, all that stuff is there. There's other um links to other podcasts that I've been on if you want to hear more about specific areas of it, uh, the technology behind it, or or really just the grief story. There's there's all sorts of stuff, and and there's a contact form. So if you have questions for me, please reach out. I get all of the emails. I'm a one-man shop at this point. So uh I promise you I will respond. I can't tell you that it will be within 24 hours, although I wish it would be. Um, but I will I will respond.

Fatima Bey: 34:41

Well, John, I've really enjoyed talking to you. And um I hope that you really go far with this because I think what you're doing is gonna help a lot of people in in ways that you probably didn't expect. So once again, thank you for coming on.

John Kammer: 34:56

I I appreciate that. I I certainly hope so, and and you don't have to worry about me. This is not stopping anytime soon.

Fatima Bey: 35:01

Love it. And now for a mind-shifting moment. The reason he created Guardian Angels is to help people heal. And the way he helps people heal is very unique. It's not typical, it's not standard, but I believe a very useful one. You see, people heal in many different ways. There is more than one way to heal. What works for you may not work for someone else. Don't assume that the way you heal is the way someone else heals. If you don't know what I'm talking about, when I say people heal in different ways, perhaps it's because you haven't healed yet yourself. So you don't know the different ways of healing yet. Maybe it's time to change that. You've been listening to My Shift Power Podcast for complete show notes on this episode, and to join our global movement, find us at FatimaBay.com. Until next time, always remember there's power in shifting your thinking.