Fatima Bey 0:02

Mind Shift Power Podcast. This is Mind Shift Power Podcast, the number one critically acclaimed podcast where we have raw, unfiltered conversations that shape tomorrow. I'm your host, Fatima Bay, the Mind Shifter. And welcome everyone. We have today with us Linda Decker and Lisa Ruff. They are authors. They are the co-founders of the College Admissions Collective. And they have a book called The Comb College Method. How are you today, Lisa and Linda? Great. Thanks for having us. Happy to be here. Thanks, Patima. And thank you for coming on. So we're not going to have your average college conversation today. So let's dive right in. Where did we collectively decide that one accepted letter determines a teenager's worth or future trajectory?

Lisa Rouff 0:58

Yeah, that is a really great question. And I think the answer is complicated, but it seems certainly in the last 10, 15 years, the focus on selectivity and people going to like, you know, the colleges that are listed in U.S. News and World Report seems to be a goal. And so students are doing everything they can to make that goal happen. And if for some reason that goal doesn't happen, most likely through no fault of their own, then they often feel like a failure and get depressed. And so it's it's kind of a toxic situation now, the way teens are um exposed to this in the college admissions process.

Fatima Bey 1:40

Do you think it's different from when we were younger?

Lynda Doepker 1:43

Oh yes. And I think Lisa just gave a great response because my initial reaction was to just blurt out TikTok as to why we think that. Um and went to college back in the 1900s. Just love saying that now.

Fatima Bey 2:15

Make it sound like we're so old.

Lynda Doepker 2:17

I know, right? Back when you had to fill out the applications by hand, or maybe if you had, you know, lucky enough to have access to a selectric typewriter. Um and so now students have so many more options. You know, uh the common app uh makes things easier and they are bombarded uh by by information um through social media and uh all of that. And we just we didn't know um about all the 4,000 schools that were out there back uh in our day. But certainly with you know Google, with AI bots out there, um they can do research. I just put that in air quotes. Um so they have it's it's not the lack of information, but it's the lack of uh having a plan and how to gain perspective from all of that information.

Lisa Rouff 3:23

Yeah, and you have to keep in mind that there is a whole industry that makes money off of the anxiety that kids and parents have about um getting into college. There's a whole industry that is based on, you know, exploiting the anxiety of parents and kids who are worried they're not gonna get into that, whatever that top school is. And you know, college counseling, frankly, is one of them. Um and that's not how Linda and I operate. We try to make the process much calmer and more relaxed and stress-free. But there's so there's economic um incentives for many people to stoke the fires. You know, and even like the TikTokers, like obviously, the more controversial thing that you say, it seems like, the more you're gonna get um in the algorithm on TikTok and Instagram. So there is a um um pressure for these people to say very provocative or outrageous things, which, you know, sometimes are not true whatsoever.

Fatima Bey 4:25

So I asked you about the idea that one acceptance letter, acceptance letter determines their whole future and their whole worth. And how much of that is bullshit? All of it.

Lynda Doepker 4:41

It's part of case. I mean the yes, not not the part of it, the yes factor.

Identity Foreclosure And Mental Health

Fatima Bey 4:48

Yeah, it really is. And you're I think what you just said was absolutely key, that there's a whole industry waiting for your stress so they can make money off of it. And I think that more people need to be aware of that. Um, and we're gonna take a deeper dive into different parts of that. So speaking of that, what happens to a teenager's identity when they start curating themselves for admissions instead of discovery, instead of discovering who they actually are? Like how does that affect how they see themselves?

Lisa Rouff 5:22

Well, you know, in psychology, we have a term for that. It's called identity foreclosure. So they are not organically exposing or exploring different options as they come up. They are picking a path prematurely and then only doing the things on that path. So I think it impedes their personal development, frankly. Um, they don't really get a chance to explore who they are as people because they are trying to be an admissible student, which I don't even know what that is, but what they imagine an admissible student is to, you know, Ivy University. And so that I think is a huge problem for a lot of kids.

Fatima Bey 5:58

Would you say that uh, in other words, causing them to shut down their real selves and put themselves in a box, almost like a cage?

Lynda Doepker 6:07

Yeah.

Fatima Bey 6:07

Mentally, I mean.

Lisa Rouff 6:08

Yeah. I mean, obviously, I hope they're not putting themselves in an actual box or cage, but that would be even worse, you know.

Fatima Bey 6:16

But not unless somebody's paying you for it. It's different. No, the no, you won't go there.

Lisa Rouff 6:22

But yeah, I do think it is psychologically, it's it's it's it impedes their development as people, you know. I think when Lyndon, you probably when you and I were young, like, right, I mean, there wasn't that huge pressure. We kind of did stuff we were interested in. Maybe we thought about if something was gonna look good on college application, but not really. I don't ever think I recall ever thinking that.

Lynda Doepker 6:43

Well, that was definitely not happening for me back in in my day. Now, of course, you know, Midwestern girls here. So uh it might have been different um in another part of the the country. But I I worry about what happens when kids start doing that. Um I see this like in the gifted community, where from an early age they're told, you're so smart, you're gonna go to Harvard or MIT or something like that. And then when it doesn't happen for them, um, what does what does that mean for them?

Fatima Bey 7:20

When a when a um a child, uh a young adult is groomed, and I'm using that word intentionally, groomed from childhood, like you say in the gifted uh area, a community, they're groomed that this is this is where you need to go to mean something. This is where you need to go to be of value. And if you don't get in, you're crap. How damaging is that message?

Lynda Doepker 7:48

Well, and and Lisa can probably put um better, more scientific terms uh to it than than I can. Um But I I think what what I see is is well, then what am I? You know, what if I'm not the best, if I am not an Ivy League student, then I'm I have no self-worth. And that is exactly the wrong message. Uh, I think we really believe this whole process uh should be about self-discovery for kids um and not that carefully curated, groomed uh persona that you're talking about. We really want families to get away from that. Probably because we liked schools so much and we like learning, and we want kids to to go through that.

Lisa Rouff 8:45

Absolutely. And I mean, if you look at the increase in anxiety and depression and suicidality among um older adolescents and college students, I think we're seeing the results of some of that pressure and you know why kids are sort of unable to cope a lot of times. Once they get to cut, they are burnt out, they are tired, they don't know who they are, they don't know what to do. It's they're thrown into a very unstructured and ambiguous situation. And then, you know, you take those factors, you put them together, you've got a perfect storm for mental illness to show its ugly head.

Fatima Bey 9:20

I was just about to say something very similar. And I I feel the need to add this to this because I think it's so important. When we are already teaching them to put themselves in a box and not really truly be themselves just in order to get into a college uh, you know, so that they can be accepted or they can be considered great or whatever. We're already preparing them in a bad way for life. We're already preparing them to be that way when they get into the corporate world and become another robot. And like you said, that's why we see so many suicides. It's why we see so many people, uh, as we used to say uh a few years ago, go postal or other things, you know, or be harmful to themselves. We get to see that happen because it all starts when when they're kids and at this college level. And this is why I have you guys on because I love the fact that you guys talk very deeply about this, you process it very deeply, and um you have a book that really dives into this stuff um in a much big bigger way, and not just here's how to get into college and be great. You go dive deep into why it matters um and why all the support around them matters. So having said all of that, can you tell us a little bit more about how how what you do helps this situation?

Lisa Rouff 10:46

Right. Sure. Well, I mean, Linda and I love school, as she said. We love college. We want, you know, any kid who is interested in higher education to have that to be accessible to them. Obviously, you know, me personally, I see the world has, you know, fair amount of problems. And I feel like we need every, you know, every person functioning at their highest potential among these young people, because I don't know how else they're gonna fix things. So I'm very invested in, you know, helping people reach their full potential of who they are. So, but we've kind of taken the college process and we have taken out the outcome. So if I don't get the acceptance letter from, you know, my dream school, I'm a bad person. That's an outcome, right? I got the acceptance letter, I did it. We reframe the process into I did the, you know, I did a really good job with my application. I got it done on time. My essay was really good. Um, you know, I felt like I was really authentic in the application. We focus on process goals, and those are goals that anyone can achieve. Um, and by doing so, we're hoping to take the stress out of it and teach people that, you know, that there was a system of to work hard and to accomplish things, but that is how you judge yourself. You don't judge yourself on outcomes because we can't control outcomes. Anything that is outside of your personal control should not be part of your self-esteem, in my opinion.

Building A Balanced College List

Fatima Bey 12:09

They shouldn't be, but they often are. And unfortunately, they're often taught that. And not always in a class that says, here's how you should measure your self-esteem. We teach people things through action and through repetition and what we value. Absolutely. And and they're often taught that. So how does the college collective help this help in this situation?

Lynda Doepker 12:33

Well, I think it's really a a reframing of things and not focused on that that one school, whatever your dream school is, but just like Lisa said, reframing to process goals. What can you actually control? And there are things that that you can do. Too too often we are focused on the sweatshirt schools. Most students know the schools within, you know, a two-hour radius of themselves, and then the schools that make all the headlines that, you know, we all know, uh, the Ivy Leagues and MIT and Caltech. Um, there's a lot of schools in between there. So we really try and get students and parents uh focused on defining your priorities, what's important to you and your student in terms of the college experience, and then doing some some deep research. We we really believe that the college list is the most important thing. Um and the the college application process. You you have to be applying to um schools that will be a good fit for you. And we're not dream crushers.

Lisa Rouff 13:51

Um I I kind of am a dream crusher. I have that reputation. My oldest daughter calls me the dream killer. But anyway, go on, Linda. Linda is not a dream crusher.

Lynda Doepker 14:01

And our kids do not count, um, because you know, they will call us all kinds of names. Dream Crusher is pretty kind, um, probably when it comes to names our kids can call us. Um so it's it's not that we're saying don't apply to REACH schools or aspirational schools, um, but we want students to have a balanced list. This this time of year is uh as decisions have rolled out in the past few weeks, you see a lot of, I can't believe my student didn't get into any college because they only applied to you know top 20 schools. And when I say top 20, that's just based on our rankings, not necessarily that they really are top 20 schools for that student. Um and it when I see those, it makes me really sad. Um, because I think it's uh just a cautionary tale for families. It's not something that your student did, they just didn't have good information. They probably applied to the wrong schools, they had the wrong college list. We want students to have options. And I I love uh looking at all of our student acceptances right now. Our students have amazing options. Uh, and that's I think that's important for families. And isn't that great for student self-worth when they get accepted to 20 schools instead of denied at every school that they've been uh applying to?

When Rejection Is A Gift

Fatima Bey 15:41

Yes. I think you just said something really key that people don't really think about, and that is that applying to the schools that are realistic for you and not just applying to the top 20 schools, as you said. That's key, and that's why you that's probably why you have a greater success rate uh and greater mental health among that. Um, I think that is a very, very key point that you pointed out, and I think that's awesome uh that you guys helped do that. There is, I'll tell you a little quick story. She's been on this podcast before and talked about it. There's a young girl that I have coached for the past few years who had no self-worth when I met her, and now she's been on the dean's list twice and ahead of her class in college and on her way to law school. So this girl has accomplished a lot, and she was very upset that she didn't get into the original school that she wanted to get into. She was very just distraught by that. But she kept applying uh into other places and she got into the school that she's in. Turned come to find out, and we both agree with this now. If she had gotten into the school that she really wanted to, she likely would have failed. She wouldn't have had the support that she has and the program that she's in, and it made a difference. And now she realizes that it was that that bless that that uh rejection was actually a blessing. So having said that, do you ever have, do you ever see students that get rejected from a school and you're glad that they got rejected?

Lisa Rouff 17:08

Well, absolutely. Sorry, kids. But yeah, I mean, I think that there is research that shows if kids go to a school where they're in the bottom third of the class in terms of like their academic preparedness or, you know, let's say their math ability or something, they have worse self-esteem than someone who goes to a maybe a less selective school is, you know, in the middle or the top of the class. Those people go out of college feeling great about themselves and they do better in life than the people who struggle to get through that, you know, prestigious university. Um, and so I think, you know, for if we're looking at the kids who didn't go, I think that is a blessing for them.

Lynda Doepker 17:48

So yeah, it it's called unanswered prayers. Hmm, show. And um, you know, it happened to my own kid. She didn't get into her first choice, first choice school. Um and we're really happy that she didn't, not because it's not a nice school and I believe she'd do well, but she's so incredibly happy where she's at. There's a uh there's a great um uh video out there by Malcolm Gladwell where he talks just about this, um where he's glad he went to the University of Toronto instead of you know, a Harvard or something like that. Um because it makes a difference. You know, would you rather be at the bottom of a class or would you rather be at the top of the class? So those are those are conversations that that we have a lot with students.

Calm Planning Versus Control

Fatima Bey 18:43

I think it's awesome that you have those conversations because they're needed and not just transactional. Fill out these forms, here's how you do this, the end. Um, I love that you do a lot more than that. Um let me ask you this. In a process that feels high stakes, how do you distinguish between true calm and just another form of control disguised as preparation?

Lisa Rouff 19:06

That's a really interesting question. But I think true calm comes from not doing what you need to do to feel like your process is going well. And by that I mean like going through the steps. This week I have to research three schools. I researched three schools. I don't have to worry about anything else about college this week. Just slowly going through those steps. If you can do that, the calm is real. You're never gonna get super anxious. If you have schools on your list that you are like 97% sure that you were gonna get accepted to and they happen to be awesome schools, you are not gonna get upset when, you know, you're not gonna be up at night worried about that you're not gonna be going to college and you're gonna be living in your parents' basement. You're gonna have to go work at the Red Lobster, right? So um I think that like if you do it right, it can be a calm process.

Lynda Doepker 19:57

I I think that what Lisa's saying is you're you're being proactive and you're taking those steps. Whereas when you're riddled with anxiety, your decisions tend to be reactive. You know, how can I, how can I end this crazy feeling right now? I'll just apply to, you know, the top 10 schools on this rando list, um, which is not really a good plan. So when you're proactive, I mean, like I love a good set of directions that I can follow and I know what I'm doing. I like Linda loves a checklist. A checklist. I would like to know what is going to happen. Who's gonna be there? What's on the menu? Am I gonna be at home before 9 p.m. at night? I mean, these are the questions I ask my husband when he tries to get me to go somewhere. Um, but I do. And don't most of us like to know what the plan is? Um, so when when families are anxious, I see them being much more reactive and and kind of just shooting from the hip.

Choosing Fit Over Prestige Marketing

Fatima Bey 21:06

Yes. And sometimes some of that uh stress that now I asked you earlier in the conversation in the beginning, do you think that it's different for teens now trying to get into college than it was for us? Of course, we know the answer is yes. But I I think a lot of adults don't recognize the pressure that they feel and experience in 2026 is not the same thing we experienced in 1996. It is different. It is more. Uh, we are more interconnected. We have a lot more in, like you said earlier, information in our face. And there's a lot more pressure, just I think in a different way than when we were, because we, like you said, we filled it out by hand. We didn't have immediate access to everything. We didn't have everything in our face all the time. So, having said that, what advice do you have for the youth out there today that are trying to? To apply for colleges or whatever kind of secondary school. And they're they're stressed out sometimes because parents are projecting onto them. Um, or for whatever reason, they're stressing out. What advice do you have for them today?

Lisa Rouff 22:17

I think my main advice to all kids who are thinking about this is don't believe the hype, right? You're getting marketed to colleges or businesses. Um, you know, they use this like the the prestigious colleges use the same kind of marketing techniques that um luxury goods do, like expensive purses and watches. Um they're using scarcity as a way to market themselves. So I don't believe the hype. Just because a school has a 2% acceptance rate, and I'm looking at you, Vanderbilt, um, just because of that doesn't mean the Vanderbilt is any better than any other school. And in fact, like as you pointed out, Vanderbilt might be a horrible school for some people. It would be the worst fit possible. So don't believe the hype and start looking at schools that are just gonna be good for you. And it's gonna fit what you need academically. They have strong programs and what you're interested in. They teach how you like to learn. You know, if you like to learn hands-on, they offer a lot of opportunities with that. And they have like things that you want to do for fun there, you know, and people that you think you could be friends with. That is like, those are the four ingredients of success for college. Oh, and sorry, mom and dad, you can afford it. Um, that would be another extremely important part of this. Look at colleges based on how they fit you, how they can be sold to you, not how you can be sold to them.

Affordability Debt And Real ROI

Lynda Doepker 23:47

We talk about how things are different uh in 2026 from uh I think you said 1996 became out, and I'm gonna go all the way back to 1986. Um where if you went to college, I mean, that was pretty much, you know, your ticket. Um, and life was going to be okay. It's a different kind of economy now, and we have plenty of people who are questioning do we need to go to college because of that soul-crushing debt uh that some students can uh incur, and which is why Lisa said it's so important to make sure it's uh a school that you can afford. But parents recognize this, and I see that a lot with families that they're questioning the ROI of a school. Um and as a parent, I appreciate that. And one of the things I think we want to get out to everyone there is a school for you. Uh, there is a school that will work for you that you can afford. I never want families to be shocked, and believe me, you will be shocked when you look at the sticker price for some of these schools. You don't have to pay that. Um, so I I just wanted to add that in because that is one of the big things that has changed. I worked my way through college. You know, I had a part-time job. Uh, I I took out the federal student loans and I made it work. You can't do that now. It it does not, it does not do that way anymore. Um so that is just an added thing for uh families to to worry about. Now we take a look at, you know, the the golden ticket of uh a computer science degree, that doesn't exist anymore. Uh thank you to AI. So it's just our students today are facing a lot of different things that were never an issue back in 1996 uh or 2006, honestly.

Lisa Rouff 26:07

Yes. Yeah, and I think um No, go ahead. Oh, I'm sorry. I just wanted to say that the financial, the financial situation of colleges is incredibly confusing. And again, this goes with my they are businesses and don't believe the hype. I think there's a certain amount of disingenuousness on the part of colleges to make it opaque and not confusing. So people kind of get excited and commit and they don't actually know what they're spending. But I'm telling you, like there is a way for any student who wants to go to college to go to college and not have too much debt. There is absolutely a way for any student to do that. It's just picking the right school, and it's really hard for kids to know what that is, especially when they're not given the right guidance.

The Calm College Method Book

Fatima Bey 26:49

Uh, as you said earlier, and sometimes as the guidance counselors, you feel like they're paid off by colleges to send people places. I'm not accusing anyone, I'm just saying that that's what it's that's what it seems like. Um I the reason I asked uh you that, and I I wanted to piggyback, I think I think it was you, Lisa, that said a few minutes ago, that what I want to say is that colleges, these quote unquote Ivy League colleges, they're Ivy Leagues because they told us they are. They're great colleges because they told us they are. And the thing is, is that we have believed the hype, as you said. Oh, Harvard is the greatest. If you look at Harvard, some of Harvard's recent numbers, I mean, when I say recent, I mean like over the past 10 years or even up over the past five years, all those numbers do not live up to the hype, actually. If you look at some of these other Ivy League colleges, and I don't have a list of all the Ivy League colleges and all the numbers right now, but I do know for a fact that not all of them live up to some of the hype. Not that all of the hype is false, but a lot of it is we're great because we told you that we're great now, believe us, and then pay us money to come here. That's what I feel like the industry is doing. And I want to, I'm talking to the audience when I'm saying that, because you guys already know this, but the audience, you know, what Lisa said about not believing the hype is a thousand percent true. Go to the college that works for you. And I am not a college expert, but I've seen enough and understood enough and have worked with experts enough to understand that much. Um, now you guys have a book. Um, and I I mentioned it earlier. Tell us a little bit about a little bit about your book and how it's relevant to this whole conversation.

Lisa Rouff 28:33

Right. Well, the book is called The Calm College Method, um, a guide for students and parents. And it is a very hands-on DIY almost kind of book that can allow a family to structure their child's college admissions process in a sane way that will be effective, but will never be too overwhelming. And it does take into account the fact that we are going to educate people through that process to not believe the hype and to look at what actual quality schools have and not the marketing. So it has a big research component because, again, as Linda said, you want that list to be right. That has to be, that is the most important thing for kids is to get their college list right to reduce stress. But it it uses the process goal model that we mentioned earlier. Um, but it's just a way to apply to college calmly and just kind of just kind of plotting along. You do one thing, then you do the next thing, then you do the next thing. Let me show you how to do that. There are worksheets um that families can use. It's it's really instructive. And I realized after we published it, I was like, Linda, we didn't mention independent college consulting one time in this book. Like it was not even a thing that ever occurred to us to write. So it really is for families um who just want to have a little bit more structure and help, but no, not that pressure. It really is. And I think that that is key.

Lynda Doepker 29:59

Families who who want to do a good job by their students and aren't sure where to begin.

Fatima Bey 30:05

And I love the fact that you you you keep all the site, this the realistic psychology um in there as well. Like we just heard some of it from you, and I know that there's more, a lot more in the book. But um, I I think that that is so important. Um so I also wanted to mention one of the reasons why I brought it up in the beginning um about how comparing how it was for us back in the 80s, 90s, and early 2000s to to to what students deal with today. I said that because I said that for the audience because I truly believe that a lot there's a lot of parents out there who actually do not understand that they our kids are growing up and dealing with a very different world than we did. And I keep mentioning it because it is key to how they deal with their how they deal with students, how they deal with our kids, how they deal with their kids. You know, this mindset of, well, this is the way it was back in 1984, is it's not that way today. It's not like you said, not even 2006. It's different now. 20 years ago was different than today. And I I think it's so key for the adults listening to understand that it really matters. And that's all the more reason why their book is something that would be good for us, would be good for the the adults, because if you don't have that understanding, what Linda and Lisa wrote can help guide you through that. What is the name of your book again? The Calm College Method.

Lynda Doepker 31:38

And where can they find it? Uh, you can find it on Amazon, on Barnes Noble. Uh, you can go to our website, the College Admissions Collective, and you'll see a link there uh that talks more about the book and has links.

Lisa Rouff 31:55

All right. Yeah. And also for families that are interested, we have a lot of free resources that we've created on our website that they can download that, you know, there are like different parts of the college process, like essay writing or doing research, or, you know, how to um do some of the parts of the common app. So that's all available for completely for free for families. Um, and we hope that they take advantage of that.

Fatima Bey 32:21

Awesome. So I do want to ask if someone wanted you to come speak to a group of parents or at a school or something like that, or anything along those lines, uh, is there a way to contact you for that?

Lynda Doepker 32:35

On the website, you'll find um we have a section on the different kinds of webinars we can do. Um, we've spoken at uh uh parent groups, conferences. We love to talk. Uh, we love to talk about college admissions. We do.

Lisa Rouff 32:52

A lot.

Lynda Doepker 32:53

Uh and actually talking with families and answering their questions is one of our favorite things to do. So it's all on the website, the college admissions collective.com.

Fatima Bey 33:05

Well, Lisa and Linda, thank you so, so much for coming on. Um, I appreciate it. And I hope that more people reach out to you because I think there needs to be more people in the college admissions community, I would say, uh, like you who think about more than just what school they're getting into. Thanks once again.

Lisa Rouff 33:24

Yeah, I mean, I think there's like a a con there's a growing movement, a small but growing movement. So come join our movement, folks.

Fatima Bey 33:32

And now for a mind-shifting moment. There's an underlying principle that is embedded very deeply into this topic. And that is what are you worth? What are you teaching our children that they're worth? Are you worth only as big as your title gets? Are you worth only the name of the school you went to? Is that your worth? You see, the problem is when we tell people that this is their worth, we produce a lot of sorrow within that person. We produce people that only barely function at their jobs, that don't typically excel that much in their career. Sometimes they do, but miserably so. And so those people end up being alcoholics, uh doing crazy things at work, uh, all kinds of different ways that that misery manifests itself, all kinds of different ways that people try to pacify the misery that comes with low self-worth. Parents, are you teaching your kids that they're only worth the type of education that they take after high school? Are they only worth college? Trade school is no good, other career paths are no good. Are you teaching them that? Because you might be teaching somebody right out of being the greatness that they were meant to be. So my question to you is what are you teaching our youth that they are worth? Because you're setting them up right now for a people-pleasing future that is absolutely miserable. What are you setting them up for in life? Not just for school, but in life. I'll tell you what, how you handle looking for college exposes how you are handling them, how they're seeing themselves. So take a moment to look at that, be honest and real. And I'm asking you to please set them up for success. Not just success on paper, but internal success because that'll far exceed any success they have on paper. Think about it. You've been listening to Mind Shift Power Podcast for complete show notes on this episode, and to join our global movement, find us at FatimaBey.com. Until next time, always remember there's power in shifting your thinking.