Fatima Bey: 0:01

Welcome to MindShift Power Podcast, the only international podcast focused on teens, connecting young voices and perspectives from around the world. Get ready to explore the issues that matter to today's youth and shape tomorrow's world. I'm your host, fatima Bey, the MindShifter, and welcome everyone. This is part two and I have my guest here, erica Bess. She is the trauma master and this is the perfect episode to have someone on who specializes in trauma, since I just told you about mine. So I'm going to mostly be quiet for this episode. I'll be here to respond and answer questions, but Erica is going to take over as the therapist who specializes in trauma and she's going to pick apart everything I just said. Erica.

艾麗卡貝斯：0:56

大家好。我將詳細分析法蒂瑪剛才告訴我們和分享的一切。感謝你們能分享這些，因為我知道那段經歷非常痛苦，即使多年以後，它仍然對任何經歷過的人產生一定的影響。所以我非常感激你們能分享這些，並與大家、所有觀眾分享，因為我相信這幫助了很多人，他們現在正處於童年時期，或者正在與一個和你母親當年交往的男人很像的人約會。我很感激你們的分享。那麼，讓我們來詳細分析一下。

Erica Bess: 1:44

12歲是一個非常脆弱的年齡，即將步入青少年時期。這就像是青春期即將結束，即將步入青春期，而青春期是最艱難的時期，尤其對於一個正在轉向自信的年輕女性的女性。由於法蒂瑪的根基在很小的時候就受到了動搖，這給她帶來了很多不穩定因素，例如她解釋說她的母親被毆打並住院了。每當一個人，一個孩子的照顧者，以及他們的安全受到挑戰或威脅時，都會讓孩子經歷一段不穩定的時期，感到恐懼，因為母親代表著他們的安全和保護。所以，如果他們的安全和保護在母親的生活中受到威脅，也會為孩子帶來同樣的恐懼和缺乏保護。所以很多時候，當女性聽到「哦，你知道，你的孩子正在經歷一些事情，因為你處於一段虐待關係中」時，她們中的許多人會認為她們自己正在經歷大部分的創傷。但你的孩子和你一樣，也經歷了很多，甚至更多，因為他們天生就有保護你的本能，就像父母保護孩子一樣。所以你的孩子，尤其是12歲的孩子，他們比你想像的12歲孩子年齡稍大一些，他們的意識比你想像的要強得多，他們能夠意識到，嘿，我的照顧者的安全正受到威脅。這威脅到我和妹妹的安全。我是三個孩子中最大的。我必須做點什麼來保護他們，我不想再看到這種情況了，因為那是她過去經歷的日常創傷。

Erica Bess: 3:41

接下來我想談談被遺棄和逃離。你不得不放棄明尼阿波利斯的家，然後逃離。有一天醒來，你以為要去上學，結果你媽媽卻讓你去收拾行李，把所有能裝的東西都裝進去，盡可能多。這本身就是一種創傷，因為你要離開穩定的家，媽媽讓你起床，打包所有能裝的東西，然後你就把所有東西都拋在身後。很多時候，孩子們背井離鄉，尤其是在這種為了生存而不得不逃離的情況下，會引發一種叫做「適應障礙」的疾病。適應障礙也可能發生在成年人身上，但發生在孩子身上。在這種情況下，它動搖了你的根基，也就是你的家庭，它把你從所有你熟悉的穩定環境中帶走，讓你徹底離開家鄉。然後不得不逃跑和躲藏，這產生了一種恐懼感，當你試圖到達安全地帶時，你必須回頭看，想像一下，就像一個 12 歲的孩子有這種感覺，然後你妹妹也有這種感覺，最重要的是，當你們逃跑時，不得不躲在後座上，這對你們來說一定是非常痛苦的。

Erica Bess: 5:01

Another thing that I thought was important to point out was your mom's lack of support that she received when trying to make that escape having to take three children and herself to safety and then only being able to rely on her mom for a little, a few weeks, and then thank God for Aunt Lizzie being able to drive you there and then you guys being able to hide in the backseat. But the lack of support that mom received, that's a huge factor, because when you're going through something like that, you need support from wherever you can get it from, whether it's financial, whether it's oh, let me donate you some blankets or some clothes, because you guys didn't have much on you. So it's like whatever kind of support that she could have received at that time, I know she would have accepted it with open arms, but not everybody was available, for whatever reason. So that's a trauma within itself. Also, having to deal with the lack of financial stability and then also having to deal with the physical trauma that your mom went through and then the emotional trauma that you and your sisters experienced when you had to move into the hotel. That was another environmental trauma, you know, just a lower level of lifestyle. So you were probably exposed to things around the area of the hotel that weren't the best situation. So that could also cause a little uncertainty and a little instability, because there's a lot of negative things going around you Not to say that that stuff was going on in your specific hotel room, but just stepping out of that safety of the hotel room and then becoming used to living in a hotel and then having to stay there for nine months and then, mom, finally being able to get an apartment at nine months which sounds like a great thing because it's your own place, but it's still not like the house that you came from and what you're used to and then having to stuff the clothes and the pillows and not having the furniture.

Erica Bess: 7:01

那是另一個創傷，因為你沒有足夠的錢讓房子再次溫暖舒適，你必須等到存夠錢才能買家具、枕頭、衣服，然後重新開始。這就像你們必須重新開始好幾次，這本身並沒有什麼問題，但這種創傷在於，你必須一遍又一遍地適應，不得不適應這種狀態，而且搬進公寓後卻沒有你需要的東西。這確實會讓你感覺自己與社會格格不入。這會讓你感到自卑，而這種自卑感會導致自尊心低落，就像法蒂瑪在第一集提到的那樣。她說她的自尊心沒有達到應有的水平，但那是因為她的根基在很小的時候就動搖了太多次。我不知道當時你們家是否接受過心理治療，這在當時是常態嗎？是的，法蒂瑪幾乎是獨自度過了這一切，我知道莉齊阿姨也幫了她一些忙，讓她能夠獨立學習、成長。但她在這麼小的年紀就獨自應對了所有這些創傷，這股力量不容小覷。我敢肯定。肯定，因為這對一個成年人來說都不容易，更何況是一個12歲的孩子。真是太棒了。

Erica Bess: 8:29

Moving into that new space, it's a whole new adjustment and I believe that because of what she went through, she became aware of other people's trauma. So triggers as far as like maybe walking down the street and seeing somebody else putting their hands on their girlfriend. That's an immediate trigger, because what that trauma manifested in Fatima was a diagnosis which a lot of people don't even realize they have when they've gone through something. It's called post-traumatic stress disorder. So we've got the adjustment disorder from the uprooting and the instability and then the PTSD from the post-traumatic experience that causes things in you today that could be like such as hypervigilance, where you're always kind of looking over your shoulder or just kind of hyper aware of possibilities of, of unsafe situations, and having to look over your shoulder and feel like that all the time creates instability and kind of like anxiety within yourself because you're always having to be ready and prepared for something and that drains somebody. Having to always be alert and always ready for something to happen, because even when something doesn't happen, you're always ready for it, and that just drains a person after a while. So that's a lot on top of that as well.

艾麗卡貝斯：9:54

I'm not sure if I touched on it too much, but when, like I said, when her caregiver was being endangered, it shook her foundation and she realized just even if she never saw her mother get physically hit, just hearing her mother screaming in the next room or fighting for her life, that is enough to mess your child up for years to come. When your child is not able to save you and hears you screaming in the other room, imagine the trauma and just the horror inside that they feel that they can't help save their mom. Their mommy is their everything, their savior, their comfort, where their love comes from. And because they're not able to even feel safe as far as that, they can't even protect their mom. And a child wants to protect their mom just as bad as a mom wants to protect their child. So don't think, because you're the adult, that you're the one always supposed to be doing the protecting your child. If they're old enough and smart enough, they're going to want to make sure that you're okay too, and so the fact that you're not okay and you're choosing to stay in a relationship that is being abusive to you, you're abusing your children just as much, if not even more.

Erica Bess: 11:10

所以我認為，當她提到和繼父談過，提到「你不能這樣對我媽媽」之類的話時，繼父很生氣，他以某種方式理解了她的話，但那是因為他不知道她當時正處於一個飽受創傷的境地，因為她克服瞭如此巨大的創傷。說實話，就像她說的，如果她媽媽當時不讓她和姊妹們搬出去，那起謀殺案就會發生。我知道她，不管她姊妹們是否同意，她都會這麼做。她會想辦法完成的。所以感謝上帝，媽媽當時離開了，因為事情很可能在接下來的幾週內就會發生。她說，哦，是的，我們正在計劃這件事。當她說她在計劃某事時，它就會發生。

Erica Bess: 11:56

所以我認為，她繼父之所以會有這種感受，或許並非她有意為之，他之所以會這樣想，是因為他沒有意識到她之前與那個曾經錯誤對待過她母親的人相處時所遭受的創傷。那個曾經錯誤對待她母親的人。我認為，當你經歷過這樣的事情時，你會變得極端，你會想，嘿，這種事再也不會發生了，所以你別想對我媽媽做這樣的事，因為這種事不會再發生了，你還沒死就死了。你會想，哦，我是認真的。但我希望事情永遠不要發展到那種極端。幸運的是，因為他是個偉人，所以永遠不會有這樣的經驗。

Erica Bess: 12:41

But because of Fajima's trauma she had to let him know that hey, I don't know you that well If it does get to that extreme, that this is going to happen. So she had to let it be known. But that is a scary place to have to be and have to say to somebody when you've gone through something like that, because it's so real for her the fact that she couldn't talk about it for years, up until she was in her twenties. It was a lot because she had to process everything and probably couldn't even process it with her mom. Like she said, she told her mom a few years ago and that's big in itself that she was able to say it out loud.

Erica Bess: 13:17

Talking about trauma is very difficult. The experience itself is horrible and then having to speak about it is sometimes makes you relive your trauma and it's like it's supposed to heal you in the same time. But it's hard to get through it. Sometimes when you've gone through something and you're trying to explain it to somebody, you can't get through it without your throat choking up and you getting that rock in your throat and then your eyes start tearing and it's like dang. This happened so many years ago. You don't even realize how much it has affected you, let alone the children in the world who are experiencing it right now and, like she said, her tears were for them because she knows what it's like to be in you guys' shoes. So any of the children, teenagers who are going through this situation and your parents or your mom is being abused or your caretaker is being abused, she knows exactly what that feels like and the tears are just flowing and that's what makes this so raw and real. And I hope that the right people heard this episode today and know that there is hope and you can get out of that situation and encourage your loved ones who are going through this to get out, as well as your parents.

Erica Bess: 14:33

The planning of the murder that's the juicy stuff. Grateful that you left that situation, but I do believe that when you've gone through such a traumatic experience and you've experienced your mother getting hurt over and over, I think there a coldness develops inside of the children, who are starting to think violent, because they become violent too. And it's like you're not a normally violent person but because of what you've gone through and experienced through the trauma vicariously, through your mom and what she was experiencing, you experienced it just as if you were going through the same thing. What she was experiencing, you experienced it just as if you were going through the same thing. So it makes you a little tougher than you have to be and makes you a little bit more violent, because that's what you're exposed to. So she was going to fight violence with violence and end it all by murdering him. Thank God she didn't have to do that and that things worked out the way they did, but I do believe that if her mom chose to stay and continued to stay with the man, that I think I really do believe that it would have happened as well and that would have caused even more trauma.

艾莉卡貝斯：15:49

我相信，今天法蒂瑪講述自己的故事，已經治癒了許多傷痛。我認為她今天在這裡所做的，本質上是在播客中治癒自己，但同時也透過分享她的故事治癒了你們。所以，她的治癒是透過治癒你們來實現的，她告訴你們要擺脫那種處境，如果你還是個青少年，並且身處那種關係，那就現在就走開，不要變成成年女性，還要面對那種類型的伴侶，現在就睜開你的雙眼。所以，就在此刻，在這一集的這一刻，很多療癒正在發生，讓其他女性聽到她的故事，走出去，擁有離開的力量，而不是害怕離開。我認為，她提到，如果她聽到某個爆炸聲或噪音，這可能會觸發她沉默到二十多歲的創傷，這一點非常重要，現在她能夠談論它，並與你們分享。所以希望你們不用等上20年才能夠談論自己的創傷，能夠說出自己想說的話，為正義挺身而出，同時也能喚醒你們的照顧者，讓他們能夠擺脫困境，因為你們待的時間越長，就越難抽身。我認為，目睹任何針對照顧者暴力行為的孩子，他們的內心根基都會被徹底動搖，然後你們就會開始自卑，去錯誤的地方或人那裡尋找愛，因為你們不知道愛到底是什麼，因為你們從未真正建立起愛，而創傷會佔據上風，壓倒一切。但你們經歷過的愛呢？所以我認為，一旦你們的自尊心處於負面狀態，得不到解決，或者你們沒有去接受治療來重建它，因為說實話，過去很多人，很多家庭並沒有帶孩子去接受創傷治療。

艾麗卡貝斯：18:07

We were told to not talk about it. We were told to just move on. We were told to just sweep it under the rug and act like oh, we'll just act like it didn't happen. But that doesn't do anybody any good. It's just a lie, and to sit there and continue to live your life as a lie is only going to just breed more toxicity within you and then it causes more trauma after that. So we just need to be honest and that's the only way we're going to heal. And I really just want to thank Fatima for having me come on as a commentator about trauma, to break down each segment of her trauma and be able to identify the things that she's gone through and overcome, and I just want to say thank you for the opportunity, fatima for coming on, and I once again want to say to anyone listening if you're in the situation and you heard my pleas, you believe what I just said.

Fatima Bey: 19:03

但我在第一集就說過，如果你想擺脫困境，就去 FatimaBeycom，去另一個幫助頁面，點擊。只要你去另一個幫助頁面，就能找到你願意在身邊提供幫助的人。這是一項全國性的服務，而且只在美國境內。這項全國性的服務，無論你身在何處，我們都能在你身邊找到幫助。請今天就行動。現在是轉變思維的時刻。轉變思維的時刻在於播下一顆思想的種子，所以我想把這顆思想的種子種在你們的腦海裡，年輕的女士們，女士們。

Fatima Bey: 19:45

What I didn't mention before was that this took place in the 80s. There was no domestic violence awareness back then. There wasn't people around that understood what that even was, knew how to recognize it. There weren't organizations out there that specifically were there to help victims. There was just the police, who may or may not care or may or may not believe you or may or may not act like it's a big deal.

Fatima Bey: 20:12

As a victim back then especially, you were truly alone. My mother was truly alone and she had three girls to take care of while trying to manage all of this on her own. She stayed because she was scared, not because she wanted to, because she didn't know what else to do. But she finally got shook enough to say I got to do something. And let me tell you, ladies, where there's a will, there's a way. My mother's living proof of that. She made the decision to finally get out. But I want to point this out to you as well. Your children are learning right now. They're watching you right now. When you get out, they will see how strong their mother was. They may not see it right now, but when maturity hits and they get to see the whole picture because now they're mature enough to actually understand the whole picture they're going to see things differently and you may be the hero in their story. When they begin to recognize, like I do with my mother, I recognize now wow, she's amazing With all of that. She didn't turn to substances, she didn't turn to drugs, she didn't latch on to the next loser. She worked very hard and kept taking care of her girls. And I also want to point something else out. We did get something out of that situation. If we hadn't moved to New York, my mother would have never met my stepfather, which was one of the best things that ever happened to her.

Fatima Bey: 21:33

不僅如此，我還是法蒂瑪‧裴，一位思維轉換者。我是一名思維轉換教練。我是公眾人物。我的另一個姊姊裴醫師是一位博士治療師，我的另一個姊姊是一位精神治療師。她專注於治癒人們，然後幫助他們擁有更美好的未來。所以，你們聽到的是我們三個都進入了治療領域，只是方式不同。我們三個人都致力於幫助和治癒他人。如果你離開，你的孩子可能會把所有這些垃圾變成好東西。我今天只是想種下那顆思想的種子，一些好的東西。我今天只是想種下那顆思想的種子。謝謝你的收聽。請務必在我們的任何全球平台上關注或訂閱 MindShift Power 播客，這樣你也可以參與到改變世界各地年輕人生活的對話中來。永遠記住，轉變思維是有力量的。