Fatima Bey: 0:01

歡迎收聽MindShift Power Podcast，這是唯一一個關注青少年的國際播客，匯聚了來自世界各地的年輕人的聲音和觀點。準備好探討當今青少年關注的、塑造未來世界的議題吧。我是主持人，MindShifter Fatima Bey，歡迎大家。今天我們邀請到一位回歸的嘉賓，James Devine。他來自科羅拉多州，是一位演講者、中學教師、音樂家和播客。今天我們邀請他來到這裡，是因為他也是一位作家，我們將要探討「寬恕」這個主題。 James，你今天過得怎麼樣？

詹姆斯·迪瓦恩：0:41

I'm doing well. Thank you for having me on.

Fatima Bey: 0:43

Thank you for coming on again. So, as you know, I like to dive right in. So tell us, why are you here today?

詹姆斯·迪瓦恩：0:55

I am here today because I want to share a little bit about my journey.

詹姆斯·迪瓦恩：0:57

So the quick nutshell of it is from the ages of six to about nine, I was molested by a friend of the family Molested is actually too nice of a word. I was raped by him repeatedly over course of those several years and then he moved away and I thought, okay, now the healing starts. I was just a little kid, I didn't tell anybody about it, but what I found was that this hatred grew within me until by the time I was 16, I wanted to kill him and I also realized because my faith was important to me, that I needed to forgive him and but I didn't know how to do that. So I did finally, at the age of 16, take that first step of forgiveness and that began my healing journey at that point. But really that decision to forgive is really just a first step. So over the years I've kind of developed through talking to people and through my own journey. I ended up finally developing a course that takes people through the many steps that I've taken throughout my life to forgive.

法蒂瑪先生：1:53

我覺得你把自己的痛苦轉化為別人的珍寶真是太棒了。這是一件美好的事情，我非常敬佩。請告訴我們，為什麼我們需要寬恕？

James Divine: 2:05

You know, if we don't forgive, you can see how it affected me emotionally, with where I wanted to kill this guy, and I'm actually thankful he moved away, because I think I could have accomplished that if the abuse had continued and I had access to him. And where would my life be now if I had done that? I'd be in jail, probably, I wouldn't have got to marry my wife, I wouldn't have four beautiful kids. Grandbaby number 11 is on the way now. So the reason we need to forgive is because unforgiveness affects us emotionally, financially, believe it or not, physically and spiritually and I'll talk about maybe one of the physical things a little bit later but it can affect every aspect of our lives.

Fatima Bey: 2:48

這會對我們的財務狀況產生什麼影響？請解釋一下。

James Divine: 2:50

所以對我來說，多年來我一直在為自己的價值掙扎。如果有人這麼說，比如我是個音樂家，如果有人說，好吧，你想來我們這兒演奏，我們給你20塊錢，我以前會答應，但又有點怨恨，因為感覺我只是為了20塊錢演奏了三個小時，但這可能就是我的全部價值了。我沒有大聲說出來，但這就是我腦子裡的想法，所以在我年輕的時候，它影響了我。

James Divine: 3:18

My mom was the same way. She went through a lot of the same abuse and in the 80s minimum wage was $5 an hour and my mom was really great at cleaning and she worked for this restaurant that seated you could seat like 70 people, if you just kind of picture that in your head but she could clean it in an hour and so the guy paid her $5. She clocked in and cleaned it and she worked really fast but she thought, well, that's all I'm worth.

詹姆斯·迪瓦恩：3:45

And I remember telling her at one point I said, mom, someone who had a cleaning business, they would at that time I mean prices are higher now, but at the time they would have said $50, $75 to clean this restaurant. She was doing it for five. So we just value ourselves less because we think of ourselves less when we are still struggling with that unforgiveness.

Fatima Bey: 4:08

That's pretty deep and you're right. You're absolutely right. When we value ourselves as less, it affects our finances, it affects entrepreneurship, it affects whether or not we go to college. You know, pursue. It affects what we pursue, basically, and also what we accept, which is why many, many, many, many, many many youth who are sexually assaulted when they're younger, or regularly molested, end up being promiscuous or do, or end up with people that abuse them in different ways. It all boils down to self-worth, and that's not the only aspect of anything, but that's a big part of it. So you're absolutely right, most people wouldn't think about how it affects them financially. So what did you say with the other areas?

James Divine: 4:56

有融資，精神上、身體上、經濟上、情感上，基本上我們生活的每個領域都以不同的方式受到影響。

Fatima Bey: 5:07

So can you break down why that's true and how that's true?

James Divine: 5:11

我認為自尊心可能是其中最重要的因素。羞恥感也是其中很重要的一環。它會把我們擊倒在地，讓我們覺得自己不值得。然後，當你把這些事情內化時，也許我會逐步解決這些問題。如果你內化了不寬恕，並且對某人懷有仇恨，它會影響你的身體，你的身體健康，並阻礙你的發展。

詹姆斯·迪瓦恩：5:38

它會在各方面阻礙你，就像你之前說的，不管你是否上大學，或者你認為自己能上哪所大學，或者你能從事什麼職業，或者你能追求什麼職業，甚至你在與他人見面和參加面試時如何展現自己。我以前參加過面試委員會，遇到有人來面試，他們會說，你知道的，我只希望我能得到這份工作，你會為他們感到難過。但你也會想，他們經歷了什麼？因為他們來面試時缺乏自信。還有一些人帶著傲慢的態度來面試，這也很糟糕，但你能看到那些受傷的人。

Fatima Bey: 6:17

So when it comes to unforgiveness now in your case, it was sexual molestation, correct. Now in your case, it was sexual molestation Correct Repeated, continuous sexual molestation that was the root of your anger, that you needed to release and let go of. But does it have the same effect if you're unforgiving of someone who? Unforgiving of your father who used to beat your mother, for example?

James Divine: 6:42

我覺得可能是一樣的，這也是我經驗的一部分。我爸爸虐待我媽媽，我覺得這實際上導致我更容易被這個傢伙騷擾，因為我一開始就很自卑。

James Divine: 6:58

So those things can keep going on and, as you know that we see, we see young people who continue to almost like they're drawn to abusive people, but it's it's to try to satisfy some kind of need and I'm not putting any blame. Please don't anyone think that the blame is on the young person. It took me a long time to realize. I was a little boy.

James Divine: 7:22

I had no control over how this adult was acting in my life. He was the one 100% guilty, but when I was younger I felt like it was my fault and I felt a lot of shame with what had happened and thought that it was due to me have effects that continue on to um. For, for example, if someone had a father in their home who was abusive, then they may go on and be married to someone who abuses them and they think that's okay because then, my sister went through that.

Fatima Bey: 7:56

She went.

詹姆斯·迪瓦恩：7:56

We were so surprised when she she finally left her husband and she told us about the abuse and we were thinking, why didn't you tell us? And she said she felt like she deserved it. And we were like, no, you're not, you're a child of God, you don't deserve any of that. But that's what she felt like because she had seen it in my father.

Fatima Bey: 8:16

And you are. You hit the nail on the head when you said that. I mean, I seem to come on this subject a lot here, you know, on this podcast, because it's so relevant to humans. But it's more. To me it's important that this message gets across to the youth because they can stop some messed up stuff that us adults are still dealing with, if they deal with it now. So when it comes to unforgiveness, take us through. So you have a course and your course is about unforgiveness. Can you tell us a little bit about that course and what it's called?

James Divine: 8:52

當然，它只是個名字。這門課程的名字叫做“寬恕與生活工作坊”，它會引導人們經歷很多我自己經歷過的步驟，我只會講其中幾個，我自己經歷過的步驟，我只會講其中幾個。例如，有時候人們會想，哦，我原諒了，所以現在一切都好了。我媽媽就是這樣看待事情的。我媽媽和我爸爸在一起，可能太久了，她就接受了。好吧，我原諒他了。我原諒他了，然後他又會虐待我。好吧，我原諒他了，好吧。好吧，現在需要承擔進一步的後果。即使在我16歲的時候告訴媽媽我遭受的虐待，她仍然有辦法聯繫我，讓警察找到那個男人，但她放棄得太容易了，我不得不真的原諒我媽媽。所以我要說的一件事是，寬恕並不意味著原諒某人。

James Divine: 9:49

For example forgiveness does not mean excusing someone, and so what I mean by that is forgiveness. So, for example, the man who abused me his name is George I can forgive him and still pursue all the criminal penalties he deserved. Unfortunately, I didn't do that this was so long ago and plus I kind of went with what my mom was doing, and he's probably passed now. So you can forgive someone and have them face the consequences of what they've done. So, for example, if someone murdered someone in your family, they should go to jail. Even if you forgive them, even if they receive 100% forgiveness, they still need to be in jail for what they did.

詹姆斯·迪瓦恩：10:35

If someone abuses a kid, they still need to be in jail. We can all forgive them, but it doesn't mean we excuse them and pass it off. I mean the small things in life we are going to. So if someone snubbed us and it made us feel bad, that's something we need to forgive and move forward from. But if someone did something where they deserve some kind of punishment through the criminal system, then that's something that we should do.

Fatima Bey: 11:02

Absolutely. Forgiveness does not mean that you forget or that there shouldn't be any consequences, because if there's no consequences, what are we doing? Right?

James Divine: 11:10

And forgiveness. Here's another important one from the course. Forgiveness does not always mean reconciliation. So you know, as we have siblings and we have friends, sometimes we have disagreements with them and you always want to try to reconcile with those small things and become friends again.

Fatima Bey: 11:29

和解是什麼意思？

James Divine: 11:30

因此，和解就是將關係恢復到以前的狀態。

Fatima Bey: 11:36

So you're saying, just because we forgive them, we don't necessarily have to restore a relationship?

James Divine: 11:39

Correct. Correct Especially when the offense is so grievous that like molesting a child or spousal abuse. So if you had a spouse, for example, who abused you, you could forgive them. They could face the consequences in jail for what they did. But it doesn't mean when they get out of jail that you have to remain married. That would be reconciliation. Sometimes that happens, but in many cases it's not.

詹姆斯·迪瓦恩：12:07

In the the example I like to give is around 2005 or whenever it was that Facebook started becoming a thing. Um, I connected with the daughter of the man who had abused me and and we hadn't seen her in 20, 25 years. So I noticed in her friends list that her dad was in there. It looked like he was sitting in a halfway house type of place and all of a sudden, all these things that for years I hadn't even thought about him hadn't given him any consideration. I thought, well, what if he sees that I'm friends with his daughter? What if he asked me to be a Facebook friend? What if he showed up at my door and said hey, you know, I, I I just want to tell you I'm sorry for what I did. None of those things ended up happening, but I started going through it in my head.

James Divine: 12:57

And it's like if he should, first of all the Facebook friend. That would have been easy. I would have denied it. That never happened, though, but if he showed up at my door I would say I forgive you now get the hell off my porch, I don't need to be reconciled to him.

Fatima Bey: 13:14

對，不，你就是這樣。這是一個很好的例子。那麼，寬恕究竟意味著什麼呢？

James Divine: 13:19

Forgiveness means we we are putting what happened to us in the past. We're doing our best to not let it affect us today, and sometimes we have to make that decision to forgive again and again, and again, because different things come up in different points of our lives. So the example for me at the age of 16, I decided to forgive George, and that was step one on a 1000 mile journey of healing that now, at age 58, I'm still on that journey, but now I'm on about mile 997. So it's like I could see the end now. But when I took that first step, I couldn't see the end. And as different things happened in my life, different remembrances came up that I had to forgive again for. And what I mean is like when my firstborn son, when he turned five. I'm looking at this five-year-old boy and thinking how could someone abuse a five-year-old boy? He's small, he's just a kid, and so it brought back all these feelings and thoughts and I had to forgive again. And then, when I was an adult and I realized my mom did not do all the things that she could have, I had to actually forgive my mom because I think that she could have prevented some of this from happening, like she didn't listen to me, and I'll get. I'll give you a clear example of that.

James Divine: 14:45

喬治最後一次虐待我時，他出現在我們的教會。我大約有六個月沒見過他了。他出現在我們的教堂，然後問我媽媽。我小時候，人們都叫我吉米。他問我媽媽，嘿，吉米今天可以來我家嗎？我今晚可以帶他回來嗎？嗯，我說不，不，不，我不想去。而我媽，嗯，就像鼓勵我一樣。她說，哦，來吧，吉米，去吧，你會玩得很開心的。嗯，他今晚會帶你回來。我真的不想去，但是喬治在我耳邊低語，他說，哦，別擔心，不會有事的。好吧，發生了一些事，那是最後一次了，因為之後他搬走了，但我實際上必須原諒我媽媽，但我沒有意識到這一點。

James Divine: 15:33

I didn't realize it as the eight year old boy, but I realized it as, like the 38 year old man. It's like why didn't, why did my mom do that? A 38 year old man, it's like why didn't, why did my mom do that? And I was crying over it. And even now I can feel the emotion coming up. Sorry, I can feel some of that emotion coming up, anger at my mom for pushing me towards that that day. I mean, she didn't know so, but I still had to forgive her because she wasn't listening to her little boy saying no, no, I don't want to go.

Fatima Bey: 16:01

是的，是的，我之前在節目裡也說過，但我還是要再說一次。各位家長們，有時候孩子鬧騰只是因為不想去沒有棒棒糖的家。有時候確實如此，但當你的孩子堅決反對和別人一起去或靠近別人時，總是有原因的，你真的應該好好想想。

詹姆斯·迪瓦恩：16:28

是的，是的，我們曾經去過一個教堂，但只去過一次。第二次去的時候，我們把女兒帶到了托兒所，她開始跟我們打架。她當時大概三歲。她開始哭鬧，跟我們打架，這對她來說很不尋常。她通常不害怕去那種地方，所以我們最後沒去那裡。我們不確定是否發生了什麼，我的意思是，可能是某個孩子打了她，或者你知道，另一個三歲或四歲大的小孩撞到了她，但我們不想冒險，所以我們再也沒有去過那裡。

Fatima Bey: 17:08

And that's a good idea, because there's always clues. Sometimes we don't know what we're looking at, but that's something that for anyone listening right now, you don't have to be a parent. You could be just a parent adjacent listening right now, you don't have to be a parent, you could be just a parent adjacent. You can just have kids around you, that you see. If a child is looking that fearful of going with or near someone, there's always a reason, and it's not always sexual molestation, but it can be something just as bad. You should always investigate. We have to pay attention to our kids and their responses. So, with forgiveness, tell us, you have this course. What else is in this course? Well, first of all, let me ask you this this podcast is focused on teens and anything that has to do with them in the future. You're 58 years old, you're an old man. Why are you on here talking to teens? The future.

James Divine: 18:03

You 58 years old, you old man, why are you on here? Well, I've been where you're at. So I, when I tell even my students that I teach, I still teach middle school students, and then I have some private lesson students all the way from like third grade up to high school. So I get a lot, and my grandkids go from 13 down to one. My oldest is 13 years old. So what I tell students all the time? I tell them I've been where you're at, so I've been your age, I've been through some of the same things, but you haven't been my age yet.

James Divine: 18:36

So we can we can learn from the people who are older than us. In fact, one of the things I think that saved me besides my faith and starting that forgiveness journey is I always found for me, I always had an emptiness. I felt like I needed an older man in my life.

James Divine: 18:56

And I found some great mentors throughout the years that didn't do abusive things to me and poured into my life and so many times when someone's been on a journey, we can either learn the hard way. I felt like I had to learn the hard way, and I'll tell you about my mom. My mom was against counseling. I think my journey could have been faster if I had gotten counseling but she was totally against it.

James Divine: 19:24

所以我不得不透過艱苦的方式學習很多東西。那為什麼要這樣學習呢？直到我50歲的時候，我才真正感覺到我就是我應該成為的人，並最終到達了那裡。但這本來可以更早實現的，所以我希望透過這門課程，人們可以開始他們自己的旅程，比我更快到達997英里，因為如果你速度夠快，就會更快。在那段時間裡，我覺得我的旅程就像爬行和行走，但我們知道時代在變化，因為我與中學生一起工作的一大好處是他們總是給你很好的反擊。沒有哪一天是無趣的，我喜歡和中學生一起工作。

James Divine: 20:12

And so one of them said when I said about, I said well, I've been your age, but you've never been my age. He came back with, yeah, but you've never been my age in this year and I was like, okay, you have a point. But the temptations were similar, sometimes different. So we didn't have a phone we could carry with us all the time. But the phone was a big deal between my mom and me if she thought I was spending too much on the landline phone, so things are just different. Me if she thought I was spending too much on the landline phone, so things are just different.

James Divine: 20:45

現在我們有20種不同的媒體，但小時候，如果你不小心，可能會看太多電視。我得說，小時候的優勢確實存在。現在這種情況更難了。我曾經被欺負過。在中學時期，至少當我回家時，我可以有大約12個小時的時間擺脫霸凌。而現在，在這個擁有手機和社群媒體的時代，我認為霸凌永遠不會停止。

法蒂瑪先生：21:13

And so.

詹姆斯·迪瓦恩：21:13

I feel bad for the young people who are being bullied, who never get a break from it, because then it continues on with the social media. That that is one thing, that's different. But I've been your age and you've never been my age.

Fatima Bey: 21:28

I like that. I like that response. You've never been my age, but, yes, my. My point in you know, asking that in a humorous way is this is relevant to all of us. It doesn't matter what your age is. To all of us, it doesn't matter what your age is, it doesn't matter if you're 12 or 58 or 82. The unforgiveness still hurts us. It is like acid to our souls. If you put certain kinds of acid on your skin, it will eat through your skin and eventually it can kill you because it eats through your skin. Unforgiveness is acid to our souls and it hurts us because now we're running around with this sore, this burning within us, when we could be free to do other things and grow instead, but we're holding on to this unforgiveness and unforgiveness, as you know, turns into bitterness eventually. Unforgiveness starts off as unforgiveness, but it branches off into other things as it grows, its roots deeper and deeper into our souls, right.

詹姆斯·迪瓦恩：22:31

對對對對。我以前有一位教授。我年紀稍大的時候回去讀碩士學位，我當時有一位教授，他人很好，但是討厭醫生。他當時大概六十幾歲，還很年輕，但是他生病了，大約兩週沒上班。他們說他從來沒有缺席過，但是，他所有的同事都說你需要去看醫生，結果發現他全身都是癌症。所以當他終於去看醫生的時候，他只剩下大約兩週的時間了，然後他就去世了，非常迅速，非常突然。所以那個嗯，我喜歡酸的例子，嗯，但我也認為它也是一種癌症。

James Divine: 23:17

如果我們讓這種痛苦不斷增長。

James Divine: 23:19

從外表看，我們似乎一切都很好，似乎一切都還好，但癌症就在我們體內，吞噬著我們，如果我們不小心，它就會殺死我們。我媽媽最不該原諒別人。她只是自力更生。她養育了孩子們，她熬過了這一生。她是一位單親媽媽。在我成長的大部分時間裡，她最終離開了我爸爸，然後她再也沒有得到幫助。因為她就像我一樣。我所需要的只是上帝，這話有一定的道理。但是上帝把我們放在其他人身邊，因為其他人可以幫助我們。這有點像當我教孩子們音樂時，他們中的一些人會說，好吧，我可以在 YouTube 上看並學習一些東西，是的，但是旁邊有老師嗎？

James Divine: 24:06

教你一些東西也很重要。我媽媽也是如此。我今年58歲了。我盡量每天走大約八英里，要嘛走路，要嘛跑步。我舉重，我健行，我經常外出活動，感覺自己正處於人生中最好的狀態。

James Divine: 24:25

當我媽媽五十出頭的時候，她已經表現得像個老太太了，因為這種痛苦正在吞噬著她，她會坐在公寓裡，整天幾乎什麼都不做。

James Divine: 24:40

And if you tried to get her, even if you like, she moved out close to us at one point and we would say hey, mom, we're going to lunch, you want to join us? No, I don't like that food. Say, hey, mom, we're going to lunch, um, you want to join us? No, I don't like that food. Um, and so she just was like, had this life that she um made? That was very kind of boring, uh, but she didn't really involve herself with other people and surprisingly, she lived to be 77, um, which we were all surprised about because we didn't think she would make it to 60 because her health was so poor all the time from her early fifties. And I think what happened in my opinion, that unforgiveness and bitterness within her grew like a cancer and just she had pains all over her body and I believe it was from this unforgiveness that it was happening to her.

Fatima Bey: 25:31

你說得千真萬確。不寬恕會對我們的身體產生影響，而那種苦毒也會對我們的身體產生影響。它會傷害我們的腿，讓我們的心臟更吃力。它會對許多不同的部位產生影響。我不是醫生，但我想你們都明白我的意思。它確實會對身體產生影響。所以，大家知道這門課程要多久嗎？你們知道。

James Divine: 25:54

I think it's really. It's really self-paced. I never really thought about how long it would take, but there's probably about 12 lessons and they're all fairly short, so someone could probably be done with the whole course in about two hours. But the best thing is probably to do one lesson at a time and give it a couple of days to sink in. Or they could do it in two hours and then go back and and repeat some of the lessons to really do do some deep work. It comes with video instruction and then there's also a PDF that you can download that some people find healing by doing some writing. So I think there's some prompts to do some writing. Some people don't like doing that and that that's okay. Use it whatever way works best for you.

法蒂瑪先生：26:39

Can you give us an example of one of the steps that's in the book or in the course? Rather Sorry.

James Divine: 26:44

So one of the the one of the steps is going to be to actually decide that you're going to forgive and once you make that decision, that's usually the first step, but then the other steps just talk about. Some of the false assumptions are about forgiveness and what to do when you encounter different things and definitely encouraging people to seek out counseling as well, depending on what the forgiveness that you're trying to seek involves. But I have like six or eight of the things where it talks about forgiveness is not like we talked about earlier. Forgiveness is not excusing, Forgiveness is not reconciliation. I think those are a lot of misconceptions that people have.

Fatima Bey: 27:40

我們還沒提到的另一個最大的誤解是，寬恕是一種感覺嗎？你需要先感受到它嗎？

James Divine: 27:48

不，沒有感覺。你需要先感受一下嗎？不，不，我們就是其中之一。現代社會的弊端在於我們太注重感覺了。我們總是搖擺不定。如果你看看二戰那一代人，你會發現他們完全不注重感覺。他們太偏激了。而現在，對很多人來說，一切都取決於感覺。

詹姆斯·迪瓦恩：28:12

And somewhere in the middle is the right response. But if we wait till we feel forgiveness, we're not going to do it. We have to make the decision and we have to, and it's not oftentimes it's not a one and done it's, I need to forgive. And then the thoughts come back, or anger comes back, or the, the murderous thoughts, like I had come back and it's like no, I already forgave, that. I'm not going to follow my feelings in this, because it's not the. Our feelings are good, they're given to us by god, but they're not. We can't use that as our soul rationale. We want to use the rational side of our brain and the feeling side of our brain and have them come together in the in the middle.

法蒂瑪先生：28:55

Right, it's a decision first and the feelings will follow.

詹姆斯·迪瓦恩：28:58

Yeah.

法蒂瑪先生：28:59

And not the other way around?

James Divine: 29:00

Right, right, and it's sort of like with the. This is maybe a silly example, but like I don't particularly enjoy exercising, so if I waited until I felt like exercising I would never do it. I just make it my habit. I'm going to go do it because I know it will make me feel better later the. To go back to the cancer example too if you were to go to the doctor today and you found out you had massive cancer throughout your body and he's like we're scheduling you for surgery tomorrow, there's going to be pain involved because that cancer has grown.

James Divine: 29:32

當他們切除癌症並縫合你的時候，肯定會有疼痛，但人們忍受疼痛的原因是，他們知道在另一邊，他們的身體會更健康，甚至精神上也是如此。如果我們讓癌症在體內生長，切除時會很痛苦，但隨後癒合就會開始，隨著傷口的癒合，我們也會變得更好。

Fatima Bey: 30:00

I think that those are both really excellent analogies and I do think the exercise was a good analogy too. I love the cancer analogy because I think that's something all of us can really relate to and really kind of get the concept, and you're a hundred percent right on that. So how can people find this course and how much is it?

James Divine: 30:21

So it's absolutely free, and I know you're going to put a link in your show notes, but people can also go to jamesdivinenet and you'll find it there in the store, as well as a story, a book about my journey called Sad Boy, joyful man, and that book also is absolutely free on that page.

Fatima Bey: 30:43

So for all of you listening right now, audience, I don't care what your age is. If you know that you need to forgive someone for something heinous that was done to you or done to a loved one, you know that you need to forgive and you know that what we're saying is true. You just don't know how to do it. That's what this is for. So James has taken the time to put together something for you to just to guide you in that process.

法蒂瑪先生：31:08

The book isn't not the book. The course is not going to do it for you you still have to do it yourself but it's just to guide you so that you can arrive at the freedom of getting over it instead of staying under it. Yep, yes, Well, James, thank you so much for coming on again today. I've been wanting to talk about this topic for a while, so I'm glad that we can do more than just talk about the topic, but we can actually offer them something that they can put in their hands to actually solve it. So I thank you again for creating that and coming on here again today.

James Divine: 31:44

謝謝你們的邀請，我非常感激。

法蒂瑪先生：31:46

謝謝你的邀請，我非常感激。現在，我想回顧一下之前我說過的話：寬恕是一種選擇，而不是一種感覺。我們很容易糾纏在那些感覺，例如憤怒、受傷，而這些感覺確實存在。這些感覺是合理的。然而，放下它們是一種選擇。寬恕不是一種感覺，而是一種選擇。感覺會隨著選擇而變化，正如他之前所說，這是一種日常選擇。它包含多種選擇，一步一腳印。這是一種選擇。當你放下時，你就是在選擇不讓自己怨恨，你就是在選擇不讓癌症侵蝕你的身體。所以，做出選擇吧。感謝你的收聽。請務必在我們的任何全球平台上關注或訂閱MindShift Power播客，這樣你也能參與這場改變世界各地年輕人生活的對話中來。永遠記住，改變思考的力量是巨大的。